Snobby Snape?

[Mike]

> Judy wrote: 
> 
> Well, even if the premise is that Snape only *initially* believed 
> James to be a "dumb jock" and that this led to the hostilities 
> between them, I don't agree.  I think that Snape only made the 
> comment that Gryffindor's were "brawny rather than brainy" because 
> he felt that James was deliberately insulting him, and needed 
> something to say in return. 
>
> And Pippin added:
> Because James drew and brandished an imaginary sword, and
> the sword was something Godric Gryffindor was famous for.
> Clearly James fancied himself a future as a man of action.

Mike:
Right, but where did Severus go when he needed something, anything 
for a response? He compared his brains to James' brawn, which in 
modern times unlike Godric's times, is code for athlete instead of 
knight. It turns out Sev was prescient in this comment as James does 
become this "Quidditch hero".


> Judy:
> I don't really see why you are so convinced that Snape is anti-
> jock. I see his rivalry with James as enough to explain his 
> disparaging remarks about Quidditch.

Mike:
Obviously I'm not getting this across. Snapes *initial* reaction was 
the anti-jock comment. That was their *starting* point. Snape did 
continue to use this, at least as far as fifth year. But it was by no 
means the only thing, and probably not the largest complaint of Sev's 
by this time. 

Yet, I remember a few people on TOL saying that Lupin was clueless 
when he claimed that Snape was jealous of James' Quidditch 
accomplishments. The DH memories show otherwise, don't they? Snape 
does resent James' "Quidditch hero" status at least into 5th year.

 
> Judy again:
> 
> In general, I just can't see saying "I'd leave" as merely a way of 
> expressing a desire to be in another House.  For most young magic-
> users in Britain, Hogwarts is their ONLY real chance at an 
> education. Leaving Hogwarts would mean turning one's back on the 
> wizarding world and being a virtual outcast. 
> - and-
> So, "I'd leave" seems to mean, "I'd rather be marginalized and 
> uneducated and impoverished than stay in THAT house." I can't see 
> it as anything but a major insult.

Mike:
Way, waaay too literal. They're 11-year-olds, they're not that 
deep. "I'd leave" as an insult, would be no more than "your house 
sucks". Anything more is not a concept they would comprehend.


> Judy:
> Mike, I believe you said in a previous post that you've encountered 
> intellectual snobs in real life. So have I, but they tended to come 
> from a very different background than Snape. The intellectual snobs 
> I knew tended to be well-off, with private school backgrounds.

Mike:
Oh yeah, rub it in, even your "snobs" are upper crust unlike my 
middle of the road encounters. LOL 

Really, most of the intellectual snobs I've met are simply smart 
nerds. Just like Snape. And nowadays, none of them would know that I 
used to be a jock, so that doesn't really come up too often. But 
looking at the young Severus, I saw that anti-jock snobbery there in 
the beginning, and it seems to have taken adulthood for him to grow 
out of it.

  
> Judy:
> I just can't see eleven-year-old Snape as a confidently 
> smug highbrow.   

Mike:
Not confident, more likely putting on airs. 


> Judy:
> Mike, it sounds here as if you have moved from saying that Snape 
> *initiated* the hostilities with James because Snape looked down on 
> athletes, to saying that James and Sirius were *entitled* to pick 
> on Snape.  I clearly don't agree that they were entitled to pick on 
> Snape, but whether they were or weren't isn't the question. What we 
> were debating is the reason for the hostility between Snape and 
> James. Saying that James was entitled to pick on Snape because 
> James knew Snape was destined to be a Dark Wizard is a far cry from 
> saying that *Snape* initiated the hostilities because he looked 
> down on athletes.

Mike:
Two different things completely. But do let me make something clear. 
Snape's response to James on the train is essentially a shot in the 
dark, it's him guessing that James is a "brawny" type with nothing 
but the sword brandishing clue to go on. From that point forward, 
there must have been various conflicts that defined and redefined 
their enmity. 

That James did become the "brawny" athlete remained *a* constant. 
(The funny thing is that I never got the sense that James was brawny 
at all; more likely a skinny but physical fit kid) But the Quidditch 
stuff probably isn't really foremost of Sev's complaints in the later 
years. I'd guess the hexing battles most likely kept the 
conversations lively.

Now, I'm not claiming any entitlement for any of these antagonists. 
All I'm saying is that there are enough clues for me to believe that 
Severus took part in his share of hexing during this time, and that 
MWPP undoubtedly were on the receiving end once in a while.

Oh yeah; I know we were talking about what Sev disliked about James. 
Judy dear, you were the one that expanded into the whole Marauder v 
Snape dynamic. I was just responding to your new topic. ;)



> Judy:
> This has been discussed a lot on the main list. Whether you see the 
> attacks against Snape as two-against-one or four-against-one 

Mike:
How about if I see a few Severus plus 2 or 3 against one or two of 
the Marauders? Snape had Slytherin friends, those friends had their 
fun against some Gryffs. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to 
see Severus joining in their reindeer games, he's no Rudolph.


> Judy:
> 
> As for Snape hanging out with other proto-Death Eaters, we never 
> hear anything about Snape's friends attacking James or Sirius. 
> And, Lily asks James what Snape has done to James, and all James 
> can come up with is, "It's more the fact that he exists, if you 
> know what I mean." Hardly evidence that Snape and his friends were 
> bullying James. 

Mike:
Yes we did hear about Sev hexing James. Sirius and Lupin allow as to 
how "he never lost an opportunity to curse James" into their seventh 
year.  Sev's one of those future DEs, he's as much as admitted it to 
Lily, he invented all those cute little hexes and jinxes. How does a 
non-verbal spell become popular if it was never used by it's 
inventor? No, I'm not buying Snow White Sev who never initiates or 
plans any counter attacks.

Snape's Worst Memory was *one* encounter, with Sev being caught out 
in the open with no backup. If Sev's friends were there, do you think 
*they* would have just stood aside and watched?

Mike, a big Marauder fan :))