The Debate Around TBAY, Etc.

[msbeadsley]

I went back through all the posts beginning with ADMIN's request for 
TBAY and reread them all (and made a list and wrote a one-sentence 
synopsis of each one; anyone interested in *that* can just ask).

It's possible I *was* rude. For that I'm sorry. I wish I'd found a 
way to express those thoughts in a way no one would or could take 
exception to. Although the probability of success may approach zero, 
I am here to try it again. Because rereading the whole mess has only 
made me more certain that I'm onto something here and just haven't 
found quite the right way to say it.

Disclaimer: this is ALL just my opinion. I've been known to be an 
idiot at times. I do not intend to offend anyone. I am not unaware 
that I may do so, however. (There is a difference.)

One discussion point has been whether or not TBAY conforms to canon 
guidelines (always/usually/often/ever). Opinions differ (no surprise) 
and there is no consensus. Majority opinion seems (to me, and I 
counted) to be that TBAY posts conform to main list canon at least as 
well as general posts. (Although there was further discussion as to 
the per-line canon-worthiness of TBAY posts; I'm not going back 
there, although I don't deny anyone's right to do so.) Some people 
like TBAY, or even love it; others dislike it, or even hate it. (We 
knew that, didn't we?) No consensus. A lot of people are sort of 
seesaw-neutral, with mixed feelings. Majority here seems to be 
(again, I counted, and invite you to do so yourself) in favor of 
supporting TBAY's existence on the main list. It was at least implied 
that TBAY is OT, and as appropriate to remove to its own area as the 
movie discussions were thought to be. There was not a lot of support 
for that. There was one opinion expressed that, indeed, TBAY would 
even *benefit* by being moved. Many others disagreed. It was said 
that TBAY is a burden on those who have to navigate the rest of the 
board while avoiding it. Than again, the low percentage of TBAY posts 
was mentioned several times (and seems to me to be a sufficient 
rebuttal of expressions of "the trouble it takes" to ignore TBAY. 
Someone expressed the fear that their messages might be shanghaied 
(spell check says that's right, but urg) off to TBAY, but, well, that 
seems very easy to fix (as well as not having been taken very 
seriously). Some people think the format is inappropriate to the main 
list; others think TBAY has been allowed to become deplorably full of 
weeds; and some think TBAY and TBAYers is unfairly exempted from the 
general rules and favored by ADMIN. Did I miss anything?

(Personal note: the issue of whether or not TBAY is "resilient" 
enough to handle a move to its own area: is this a trick question? 
It's a "heads I win, tails you lose" for those wanting to move it: 
whether it survives or not, they win; even if it survives, its 
supporters can hardly do more than break even. As there seems to be 
little actual impetus for moving it, its ostensible resilience is 
moot. Again, strictly my opinion.)

I said I suspected intensely anti-TBAY folks of having ulterior 
motives for wanting to shut it down or exile it to cyber-Siberia. And 
that I thought maybe it was due to a discomfort with including its 
often high silliness quotient on a board they might want to think of 
as "serious," as in "serious lit'ry analysis." Or that some people 
might feel rejected, left out by an unwillingness or inability to 
participate there, or a perception that they wouldn't be welcome. 
But, hey, maybe *nobody* has even a *hint* of that going on. How 
would *I* know? I was just trying to make some sense out of the  
antipathy that I personally find so disproportionate. Not the, "Oh, I 
don't like it," or the "I wish it would go away," but the "IT MUST 
DIE!" sentiment I've heard about and thought I was sensing here.

I *really* don't understand. I am and have been trying to. 
(Negotiation is about figuring out what each side wants and what part 
of what each side wants is paramount to them, and then trying to move 
the available resources in such a way that enough people get enough 
of what they want to satisfy them. And although I was *not* trying to 
negotiate, I was trying to figure out the stakes.)

Shaun is getting a second ADMIN opinion on the post he spent so much 
time doing astrological research on and I think that's a very good 
thing. <I respectfully salute Shaun: it's very cool that he knew and 
could even say (and this is a paraphrase), "Hey, at least part of how 
I feel about this issue can be traced back to this particular 
personal thing."> Go, Shaun!

Considering the obvious emotional (and otherwise) investment that 
*some* list members have in TBAY (not to mention the enjoyment of 
those who just like having it on the main list), I cannot help but 
think that any intense antipathy towards it *which manifests in any 
actual attempt remove it and/or do it damage* has to be based on 
something beyond anything I've read here. It just doesn't make sense 
(to me, yes, my opinion again), otherwise. Note: I *know* people 
often don't like being told that sort of thing; it can make them 
angry, or uncomfortable, or both. (So I refrain from stopping 
strangers on street corners and demanding that they consider their 
innermost secrets, in spite of the fact that *I* am deliberately and 
painfully introspective...and yes, you can rewrite that as self-
absorbed--with my permission). But when something hidden behind the 
scenes (again, *if* this is even the case) seems to be a motivating 
force behind an assault on someone or something I care about, then 
yes, I'm going to say that I think something is going on back there 
and even try to get to the bottom of it. And this does not mean that 
I think anyone lacks a sense of humor (which word I hadn't even 
mentioned) or has anything "wrong" with them.

Note: if it's a matter of, "Yes, I think my hatred of the thing, 
regardless of its basis, is enough reason to pull it apart (or at 
least risk it) regardless of how many people disagree or try to tell 
me that would hurt them," anyone who is willing to just come out and 
say so (that *is* a valid viewpoint, BTW) will stop me dead in my 
tracks, end of debate...on my part, anyway.

Sandy