Fandom, HP Fandom, HPfGU, Love, Language, and TBAY (long)

[Doriane]

"msbeadsley" wrote:

> I find the "foreign-language" metaphor exaggerated, self-indulgent, 
> and self-serving.

(Del closes her eyes, breathes deeply, and repeats in a low voice : I 
shall not take offence, I shall not take offence. ;-)

> For one thing, TBAY "conversations" are not taking place in real 
> time, with spoken dialogue whizzing past too fast for those who 
> don't speak the "language" to capture, comprehend, or "translate." 
> We are dealing with *written* material here, and timing loose 
> enough to give most who'd like to translate plenty of 
> opportunity to sit and decipher.

Hum, considering how fast a topic can advance in just a few days, I'm 
not too sure this is true.

> The *words* used to write TBAY posts are English. TBAY is a 
> dialect, or an accent, or English-language performance art, NOT a 
> foreign language. And you know, although I don't have a hope in 
> h*ll of understanding anything but spoken English, even *I* can get 
> out a foreign language dictionary and glean the basic gist of 
> something *written* in a foreign tongue.

Can you tell me where I can get a complete English-TBAY dictionary ? 
The only honest answer is nowhere. You can give me the translations 
of a few words, but not all of them.
And I'm not even mentioning grammar !

> I'm sure what I said came out something like "About thinking I stop 
> you cannot. Duck poop."

Reminds me of the time I read a FF piece about Fleur and her family. 
At one time she shouts something like "Quoi etes-tu regardant a ?" I 
remember staring at that sentence, and telling myself : I'm sure this 
is supposed to mean something, but what... ? And then I did a word 
for word translation and came out with "What are you looking at ?" I 
nearly died laughing :-)

> The person who talked about her husband and his friend had a point. 

That would still be me :-) I *told* you language is a big issue for 
me, lol !

> I think it is rude to her for them to converse regularly and at 
> length in her presence in a language they both know she *cannot* 
> follow or respond in.

And this is exactly what TBAY *feels* to me. I might know 
intellectually that this is not what is meant, but I can't help 
feeling this way.

> But again, this is spoken language. Again, this is a matter of 
> *words* whose meanings she just does not have in her lexicon.

Actually, no. My husband's language is a mightily complicated one. 
They have 3 genders, 6 declinations (different for each gender, of 
course :-), no articles, a different grammar, and so on. When I do 
get the courage to learn it, I'll have MUCH more than just the 
dictionary to learn.

> Somebody please quote a snippet of TBAY here and point out the 
> other-than-English words for me. (I *understand* this "foreign-
> language" argument is metaphor. Somewhat like TBAY is sometimes. 
> Isn't *that* ironic?)

LOL ! Yep, it is :-)
Anyway. To explain my problem, I'll quote Pippin who wrote :
"Consider the end of CoS. Diary!Tom, a man of letters, literally
literal-minded and prosaic, can not be defeated by the sword of
Gryffindor. The pen is mightier. But he underestimates the
power of symbols, and so he is destroyed by a songbird (faith),
a sleeping virgin(hope) and old clothes (charity)."
Well, when I read that, my mind just went blank. I do recognize that 
she's speaking English, I know all the words here, but I don't get 
the concepts at all. I have so many questions I don't even know where 
to start ! Why would a songbird represent faith ? Why would a 
sleeping virgin represent hope, or old clothes charity ? What's the 
relationship between "a man of letters, literally literal-minded and 
prosaic" and the fact that he can't be defeated by the sword of 
Gryffindor ??
Don't you see ? She's using a whole background of concepts and 
symbols I've never even heard of. Which is exactly the same as using 
words I don't know, as far as I am concerned.

> (SF) Fandom attracted many with something to say, and with many 
> ways to say it. And zines, so far as I know, did not fill up with 
> complaints about other members whose offerings consisted of fan 
> art, fan fiction, verse, or even recipes for green Jello (very 
> fannish) shooters. 

Maybe it didn't use to. And maybe some of it still doesn't. But one 
thing that struck me when I got on the Net and went around some areas 
of SF fandom was the cleavages there were between the different 
factions, the disrespect many fans showed towards anyone who 
expressed their fanitude (??) in any other ways, systematically 
considered more vulgar and less worthy ways.

> well, while the words of the Hogwarts school song remain the same, 
> everyone sings their own favorite tune. I imagine it's a head-
> splitting, howling cacophony...but no one in the narrative is 
> complaining.

They don't because this is the way the Headmaster has decided it 
would be : they don't have a choice, they don't have a say. But here 
in Feedback, we have the opportunity to say we don't like it, so we 
do.

> And while some people accuse TBAY of being elitist and exclusory, 
> TBAYers are not the ones asking for their own separate list area. 
> (If nothing else, they want their brilliance admired, as we all do 
> when we aspire to show such.)

I'm afraid that's too often what it seems they are looking for : 
honors. "Look how brilliant we are". I personally don't think that's 
what they are after, though. And I don't think, after reading their 
posts here, that they even realize how exclusory the BAY can be. They 
don't mean it. But it is, and we have to deal with that now.

Del