[HPforGrownups] Re: An Elfly Reminder

[cubfanbudwoman]

Random832:
> The problem is not that I got called out for supposedly "insulting"
> you. The problem is that I am _absolutely_ sure that if i'd instead
> called you a "smart-aleck" (which means the exact same thing) none 
> of this would happened. The presence of a four-letter (ok, three-
> letter) word jumped out at someone, and he/she felt the need to 
> react, despite the lack of a rule against the word "ass". Remember, 
> the elf responding was surprised at the use of the term itself, not 
> at any perceived insult to you or anyone else.

SSSusan/Shorty Elf:
It's a bit awkward to respond to this, because I don't feel that 
Feedback is necessarily the place to discuss *specific* procedural 
issues or instances [I definitely would not do so if the principal 
were not the person writing about it!].  That said, I do want to note 
that the word/phrase jumped out at more than one someone in this 
case.  

Mostly, though, I feel compelled to respond to the portion of 
Random's comments which states that he would not have been contacted 
if "smart aleck" had been used.  I have no doubt that Random 
*absolutely* believes this to be true, but as an elf, I also 
*absolutely* do not believe that to be the case.  

List elves each participate in a rotation of listreading duty.  IOW, 
we take turns reading a day's worth of posts.  This means that every 
single post is read by at least one elf (and often by more than one), 
in an effort to keep tabs on how things are going and to note 
anything problematic or troublesome.  (It also means we have 
an "excuse" to read the fun stuff every few days, as well, if we have 
a tendency to get behind in general.)

Anyway, my point is that "smart ass" *is* a term that has been used 
without any problem.  I'm 90% sure I've used it myself when speaking 
about a *character.*  There is, however, a difference in speaking of 
a character and speaking of a fellow list member with such a term.  
There is also a difference in speaking of a character and speaking of 
a fellow list member with the term "smart aleck."  With no indication 
that the term is being used in jest, it would be flagged by me as 
worrisome just as quickly as "smart ass."  IOW, as Steve suggested in 
his response, it's not the term itself; it's the way it's used.

I cannot say that I speak for every single elf and how s/he would 
respond, but I can say with certainty that it is not at all a given 
that a poster calling another poster a "smart aleck" would not 
concern the list elves.  


Random:
> As for the "not sure it is true" - I don't know if you're a smart-
> ass in general, because I don't know you, but the bit I was 
> responding to in particular was pure smartassery.
> Not that there's anything wrong
> with that, I'm a smart-ass myself sometimes (you should see my reply
> to the HPFGU-feedback ground rules), but you could have just _said_
> something like "but aren't you assuming the self-consistency idea
> yourself when you say that POA illustrates it" instead of 
> rearranging the quoted text to "illustrate" that and letting it 
> stand on its own without giving me a chance to answer 
> that 'accusation'

SSSusan/Shorty:
And I would counter -- as a fellow poster, even if I were not a 
member of the Admin Team -- that one can just as easily say, "Whoa.  
You rearranged things there, and it seems to me that that's not quite 
fair to the point I was making.  Why did you do that?"  That *type* 
of response allows you to express your surprise/frustration/annoyance 
at having your words manipulated in a way you didn't like and still 
do so in a polite manner.


Random832:
> Well - part of the issue is that I was called out publically - Even
> though it was an accident, I did feel like I had to defend myself. 

SSSusan/Shorty:
Yes, that was VERY unfortunate.  It has happened to me before, as 
well -- not with an elfy reminder but with a message I thought I was 
sending to fellow Administrators that I ended up sending to the Main 
list.  It is embarrassing to make such an error, but they do happen; 
we're not perfect.  In this case, the mistake was noticed almost 
immediately and was deleted.  The apology for that occurrence was 
decidedly sincere.


Random: 
> Speaking of which - while I do see the need for these rules (and I 
> was willing to go along with it even before I understood it), I 
> wish you guys would give it a rest sometimes. I'm trying. I don't 
> need to have every single little mistake pointed out. It's very 
> hard to get used to doing and it would be nice to get a little 
> credit for the progress i _have_ made.


SSSusan/Shorty:
And that is definitely a valid point, in my view.  We have little 
mechanism for positive reinforcement, and it can be frustrating to 
hear about the slip-ups but not about the progress.  

One difficulty with a volunteer staff, all sharing duties such as 
listreading and handling pending messages, is that we may not each be 
as aware of what has been said to individual list members as we would 
be if, say, there were a couple of individuals only handling these 
tasks.  (If we were a paid staff, iow -- HA!)  

If just two elves handled all listreading/elfy correspondence, it 
might be easier to recall, "Oh, I just wrote to that member; I'll 
hold off and see if s/he gets the hang of it in a day or two."  As it 
is, though, Elf A might send a quick note one day, and then Elf B 
might step in the next day and not realize or recall that Elf A just 
wrote to a person, thus perhaps sending another message on the same 
topic.  I can definitely see where that could be annoying and/or 
discouraging to a list member.  

This is something perhaps the Admin Team should have a discussion 
about handling better.  I'll just be honest -- it's rough to do this 
perfectly with a handful of people handling chores on an "as I've got 
a free moment" basis.

Siriusly Snapey Susan/Shorty Elf