[HPFGU-Feedback] Re: An Elfly Reminder

[Sherry Gomes]

> Random832:
> > Now what I don't understand is why this isn't enough if the only 
> > reason is to make sure that everyone knows who said what.
>
> SSSusan/Shorty:
> "if the only reason is to make sure that everyone knows who said what"?
> Well, yes, that's precisely the reason!

Random832:
My point, which you completely missed, was: why isn't what is done
everywhere else (indicate at the top who's being quoted at each quote
level) sufficient for that reason?

> SSSusan/Shorty:
> Well, I'm sorry you feel this way, but what we are saying is that we 
> care very much that our list members CAN tell.

And they can tell. By scrolling up. The information is present in the format
I described.

> SSSusan/Shorty:
> You might not care, but what we
> are saying is that we have our rules in place *because* we want it to 
> be clear.

Breaking style standards that have existed for several decades makes things
more clear how? It's disconcerting to see the attribution text at the same
level as the text it applied to, rather than one to the left as is
_standard_, and it made it hard for me to tell, at first, what was being
attributed to whom.

> SSSusan/Shorty:
> People who don't make much effort to make their own posts clear make 
> it much more difficult for those who follow who are trying to make 
> sure they've got words attributed correctly.  I personally find it 
> rather selfish to take the view you've expressed here.

Random832:
You haven't explained what's unclear about the posting format I am
advocating, which is used everywhere else and has been for decades.

So it's selfish to want to use a perfectly clear AND STANDARD way of making
things clear rather than using a non-standard, redundant and confusing way
that _you_ think makes things clear?




Sherry now:

Random, I am a totally blind computer user.  I am a professional woman and I
use high level computer programs on a regular basis in my work.  I tell you
this, so you know I am not a novice computer user.  I know others have tried
to discuss the screen reader issues with you.  I would ask you to reply,
either here on list, or to me privately, with an example of what you are
saying is standard and has been for years.  I don't get a picture of it by
your description.  What do you mean by saying,


"...It's disconcerting to see the attribution text at the same level as the
text it applied to, rather than one to the left as is _standard_, and it
made it hard for me to tell, at first, what was being attributed to whom."

How do you mean, to the left?  A screen reader does not indicate where
certain text is, unless we turn on features to read all punctuation,
formatting, style and other text attributes.  Also, what do you mean about
seeing the attribution on the same level as the text it applies to.  The way
I'm writing this post now, alternating between you and SS Susan, then adding
my own comments, with your attributions on a line before each of your,
Susan's and my comments makes this message easy to read and to know who is
saying what.

I remember reading your comments to Lee Storm about our screen readers
should be able to say quote and end of quote so we would know what was being
quoted.  I know she tried to explain how annoying it can be to hear
punctuation read aloud as punctuation, which it would have to be, if we were
going to know there were quotes.  You might consider this an acceptable
thing, and it wouldn't be annoying perhaps for brief messages.  But we also
read books with our screen readers, letters, forms, professional documents,
excel spread sheets, Access databases and any other kind of documents you
can imagine.  Having to always hear,quote/end of quote would drive a person
crazy, not to mention slowing down the ease and speed of work.  So, like
Lee, I and most blind people turn off punctuation announcement unless we are
editing our work.  This does not mean the reader doesn't use the proper
inflection for things like commas, periods or question marks.  It just means
it uses inflection instead of saying aloud, ... She went to the store comma
and there she bought some milk comma bread comma and wine period  

Or perhaps, quote where are you going question quote she asked period

There is no proper voice inflection for quotes, however.


I do realize we are a small minority, both in the real world and on HPFGU,
but I, for one, appreciate how this group welcomes everyone, and how the
list elves have tried to make the system work easily for everyone, including
we in the small minority.

One of the things I do, in my role now as an elf, is to help new blind or
visually impaired members become accustomed to the posting guidelines, learn
how to read the messages and generally troubleshoot issues surrounding using
screen readers and following posting guidelines.  For blind people, the
easiest way to reply to a message is to hit reply and type.  I never knew,
till I joined this group several years ago, that it wasn't customary to do
that, and that replying under quoted material was the norm.  I had to learn
a new way to do it.  The reason we would write replies at the top is that
we'd already read the message to which we were replying, and to have to
scroll down with our screen reader, which is done by using arrow keys, not
with a mouse, was and is a pain, hearing the same old thing again to make
the reply.  But since I've learned to do this, remember, a posting rule that
was not the norm I was used to, I have come to appreciate it very much,
because I can follow the flow of the conversation.  You said a person could
just scroll up to see who was being quoted at the top.  so, I'd have to
arrow down to read quotes, replies, and then arrow back up to see who was
saying what at the top of the section.  That might be nothing much to you,
but for some long multi-part posts I've seen on HPFGU, that would be a time
consuming pain.  

Again, I realize I am in a minority, but I wanted you to have an explanation
of why I like the style of self-attribution we are discussing here, to try
to give you a different prospective.  Also I wanted you to see that more
members than just you alone have had to learn and adapt to a completely
different way of doing things when joining this list.  It really doesn't
matter how every blindness related list I'm on does things, how the other
non blindness specific lists I'm on do things, what matters here on HPFGU is
how HPFGU does things.

I hope this has helped clarify things a little on one aspect of it all.  and
I really would appreciate it if you could type up an example of what you are
saying is the normal way to handle attributions.  

Sherry/Blinky Elf