An Elfly Reminder

[Steve]

--- In HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com, "Jordan Abel" <random832 at ...>
wrote:
>
> > Kelley:
> > Okay, let me give a little background on this. The 
> > whole point of requiring attribution at all is to 
> > help those reading keep track of who is saying what 
> > in the discussions.  That's it.  ...

> Random832:
> Well - the original custom, in use on usenet and e-mail 
> since time immemorial, is to attribute _once_. ...
> 
> A wrote:
> > B wrote:
> >> Whatever B said
> >
> > Whatever A said
> 
> My reply
> 
> Now what I don't understand is why this isn't enough if 
> the only reason is to make sure that everyone knows who 
> said what.
> 


bboyminn:

That looks good on paper (or on electrons), but in a sense 
you cheated (in a vague metaphorical sense) by indentifing 
the person in their fake post 'Whatever /B/ said', but let's 
try it for real.
. . . . . . . . . . . .

> > Tom:
> > It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience 
> > for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of 
> > others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, 
> > become his own.

> Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase 
> a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor 
> safety. 

At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? 
I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. 
It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we 
must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of 
freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.

Abe

. . . . . . . . . . .
Compare that to-
. . . . . . . . . . .

> > Tom:
> > 
> > It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience 
> > for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of 
> > others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, 
> > become his own.

> Ben:
>
> Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase 
> a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor 
> safety. 

Abe:

At what point then is the approach of danger to be 
expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring 
up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction 
be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. 
As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or 
die by suicide.

Abe
. . . . . . . . . .

So, who does the middle quote belong to? It belongs to 
Ben Franklin.

The reason for the signature is to say that this is 
definitively the end of my post. I didn't just 
accidently hit Send, or some other circumstance that 
might cause a partial message to be send. And really, 
is it that much harder?

As I said before, if I were to reply to that sample post, 
I would probably cut off your signature as you did the 
signatures of Tom and Ben. In that case we would have...
. . . . . . . . . . .
> > > Tom:
> > > It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience 
> > > for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of 
> > > others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, 
> > > become his own.

> > Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase 
> > a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor 
> > safety. 

> At what point then is the approach of danger to be 
> expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring 
> up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction 
> be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. 
> As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or 
> die by suicide.

One of life's great tragedies is to have never found what 
you love in life. Life's greatest tragedy it to have never 
looked for what you love.

Steve
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

Now 'who said what' becomes even more vague. Yes, you do 
know that someone said each of those things, and in some 
groups that might be enough, but the Elves here try to 
keep thing orderly and organized. Despite even my annoyance
with the rigidity of the rule, they have proven themselves 
at keeping the conversation deep, coherent, and orderly. 

Also, though valid in a general discussion of the rules, 
what happens on other groups or in other aspects of the 
Internet is irrelevant, we start out knowing that our rules 
are stricter.

Even though our rules are generally stricter, they do have 
a degree of flexibility in them. A slip now and then will 
frequently be overlooked on the assumption that is was just 
that, a slip. 

Also, keep in mind that they keep a tighter rein on new 
members than on member who have been around a while and 
have proven their consistency.

> Random832:
> Well, right now there are a number of _different_ rules, 
> depending on which elf is reading the post. Signing _and_
> self-attributing with every single section seems to satisfy 
> everyone, but it's a lot of work and I don't think it 
> should be necessary.
> 

bboyminn:

There is a difference between what works best and the 
absolute minimum require. While you can get by with the 
absolute minimum, it would be better if you did 'what works 
best'. I suspect that is part of the difference you are 
seeing in responses from the Elves.

Next, keep in mind that I am not a List Elf or Moderator 
(though the position has been offerred), but, as I said, 
I've been a member for many many years, even longer than 
the 'joined' date in my Member List profile shows, since 
I've been through three or four user ID's.

Finally, I really hope this experience hasn't soured you 
toward the group. Really, I and many members of the group 
have been through the same thing you are experiencing right 
now. We've probably even made similar arguments. The 
comments you have made in general discussion, whether I 
agree with them or not, have been informed and insightful, 
and it would be a loss to us all if you left the group. I've 
said many times before that if we all agreed on everything 
then the conversation would be over. It's the fact that we 
have many different voices, interpretations, and opinions 
that makes the conversation interesting. 

My adivse is 'hang in there'. Just ride through the current 
storm and you will be rewarded with many deep insightful 
conversations on a subject we all love.

Just passing it along.

Steve/bboyminn