[HPFGU-Movie] Re: Why books should not be movies

[GulPlum]

I said earlier that I had various "short" replies planned. This is anything 
but short. Apologies. But I just *HAD* to get the following off my chest.

At 05:16 17/06/04 , Barbara D. Poland-Waters wrote:

<snip>

>I think it's very interesting that you think I am the only person who thinks
>"the way I do." Perhaps you should check out the HUNDREDS of negative
>reviews on Yahoo Movies or the Internet Movie Database so you can see just
>how many people wanted this movie to be more like the book.

Well, all of those hundreds of people (as opposed to the thousands who 
seemed to have liked the movie) aren't here to discuss in any detail what 
they think, and we have no idea who most of them are. (As for IMdB, a lot 
of reviews on there are written deliberately to buck trends - of the dozen 
or so reviews *I* have written on that site, more than half do not actually 
represent my views, and I wrote them solely to provoke a response. I know 
for a fact that several other people have the same approach.)

However, within *this* community - all of whom are fans - according to the 
poll started yesterday evening, those who actively dislike the movie are at 
about 8% (plus another 11% with serious reservations about the movie, even 
if they liked it). Since you're so fond of the numbers, the VAST majority 
of people here liked the movie. I appreciate that this puts you in a 
significant minority and probably frustrates you, but your gross 
generalisations do have another side, and the majority of fans *here* are 
happy.

Furthermore, if you look at Rotten Tomatoes, which catalogues professional 
reviews and assigns them nothing more than a positive or negative (rather 
than attempting to assign a score the way Yahoo Movies does, which is very 
hit and miss), 163 out of 184 reviews are positive 
(http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/HarryPotterandthePrisonerofAzkaban-1132921/).

Whether or not professional reviewers' opinions are or aren't important 
(you don't seem to be able to make up your mind) and whether or not the 
vast majority of fans hail the movie (look at any of the polls not just 
here), you prefer to accentuate the negative comments, which is fair 
enough. But you cannot convince anyone that on a purely numerical basis, 
those who dislike the movie (whether or not they've read the book) are a 
majority of any kind, and in no way a significant one.

>And if other fans thought the first two movies "played like crap," why did 
>they do so much better in the box office in the first few weeks? (And 
>before you
>indicate competition or some such thing, ALL movies have competition
>whenever they're released. Where are the numbers from the die-hard HP fans
>who would go see a movie again and again and again if they liked it?)

Again, nobody here can speak for "the fans" as a general mass, but from 
comments made by the fans *here*, most people seem to have seen the movie 
twice, three times or even more (in my case, 8 1/2). We could talk about 
trends in US box office receipts and other influences which have meant that 
PoA hasn't done as well as the previous movies over time, but that would be 
pure speculation, probably best left to the professionals who do that as a 
matter of course.

On the other hand, we are in a community of about 2,300 (although the vast 
majority are inactive) fans here, so please don't try to dismiss this group 
as unrepresentative of the fandom at large. And certainly not the ADULT fandom.

>And why can't anyone who is pro-POA address their comments in regards to
>liking the movie instead of why I AM WRONG to not like it?

OK, I find that comment patently unfair and verging on the personally 
insulting (I don't know if it's deliberate; I'm a little touchy right now).

I can't speak for the multitude of people who liked the movie and for their 
comments. They can speak for themselves and I can only speak for myself. I 
have devoted most of the last three days explaining my liking for this 
movie from just about every conceivable angle, in some detail. Some of my 
posts were in response to people who liked the movie, some were in response 
to people who didn't. Some were new topics. As far as I'm aware, I offended 
nobody and belittled nobody. I do not hide that I asked a few questions 
which might be a bit tough to answer.

On the other hand, your only complaint against this movie is "it wasn't 
like the book", and you've never actually gone beyond that. You've said it 
in various ways, but it's always come down to the same thing: "it wasn't 
like the book". Is it therefore little surprise that a standard response to 
your complaints was "this isn't a book" (and variations), frequently with 
detailed explanations?

If you were to be able to go beyond "it wasn't like the book", then perhaps 
others could respond to you with something other than "it's not a book".

Could you please quote any message numbers mentioning that "[you are] WRONG 
to not like it"? Because I spent a considerable amount of time this morning 
trying to find something that even implies that sentiment, but couldn't. 
I'm not claiming that nobody's said it, I just can't find it and would like 
your help.

What I have seen, though, is several people saying that it's wrong to 
expect a movie to play the same way a book reads. That is something 
entirely different. And, for the record, it *is* wrong to expect a film to 
play the same way a book reads. This is especially true of the HP series, 
where so much of the books' allure to so many people is what is usually 
referred to as "foreshadowing" (I hate that term).  Hints on the page work 
very differently from hints on the screen; furthermore, we have a single 
perspective throughout the HP series (we see the world through Harry's 
eyes, despite the presence of a narrator's voice) which simply can't work 
on screen without a few changes. And, of course, we can't hear anyone's 
thoughts (voice-overs are the bane of literary adaptations).

And then of course there's the need to excise material from a long(er) 
book. Almost every deletion is regrettable, and especially scenes, 
sequences or lines that are loved by readers. But apart from length, 
sequences also have to be cut because a movie's pace is very different to a 
book's. A book is *designed* to be read at the reader's speed and 
convenience, and importantly, passages (or words) can be re-read as often 
as wanted or necessary. A movie has to flow in time and impose its own 
pace. For instance, three Quidditch matches is PoA would make the movie 
boring. It's not a movie about Quidditch. Removing one element for time 
reasons when adapting a book as tightly plotted as PoA will frequently mean 
removing another scene because it becomes nonsense - pretty soon, whole 
sub-plots must be left on the cutting-room floor.

I could go on, but I expect that I'm being boring already.

>So far today I've been told by various list members than I am 
>mean-spirited towards the movie because I didn't like it, I don't "get 
>subtlety," and now I'm unreasonable. I've also been told I don't make a 
>"rational argument" for not liking the movie, as if I have to back of my 
>FEELINGS and PREFERENCES with factual information. And I'm taking these 
>points of view personally?!

"various list members"? So you mean someone other than myself has said 
those things? If yes, then perhaps you should realise that there might be 
something to the perception. If not, then please refrain from engaging in 
bombast and making untrue sweeping generalisations.

Yes, I said all of those things to you off-list. Please consider this a 
reply to what you write to me in response, seeing as you've brought it up 
here. Let's deal with those attributes in turn. Your overuse of bombastic 
language is one of the reasons I said that you don't appear to understand 
(or be able to use use) subtlety. Either you're not reading, not wanting to 
read, or find yourself incapable of hearing *anything* good said about this 
movie - that's why I called you mean-spiritied about it (incidentally, I 
also suggested that you've extended that mean-spiritedness to those who 
liked the movie - maybe I'm wrong, but I leave others to agree or disagree 
with that assessment).

And if you hadn't noticed, this forum is for "grown ups". Am I *completely* 
unreasonable in my expectation that people should be prepared to back up 
their "feelings" with some kind of rationalisation beyond "it's not like 
the book"? I think I do. Several people who disliked the movie to some 
degree have put forward rational explanations WHY certain things SHOULD 
have been done differently in their opinion. You have failed to do any such 
thing (some of those people I have agreed with, some not, and some I have 
yet to respond to...).

Then again, perhaps I have completely unreasonable expectations of the 
intellectual ability that is implied in the term "grown ups". In which 
case, there is even less reason for me to remain here any longer.

Nevertheless, coming up is a reply to Barbara's original list of criticisms...

--
GulPlum AKA Richard, who hopes he hasn't been offensive to anyone but 
doubtless will be perceived as such by some...