Clarifying My Views (WAS: Re: Why books should not be movies)

[Barbara D. Poland-Waters]

>>>GulPlum wrote:

Well, all of those hundreds of people (as opposed to the thousands who
seemed to have liked the movie) aren't here to discuss in any detail what
they think, and we have no idea who most of them are. (As for IMdB, a lot
of reviews on there are written deliberately to buck trends - of the dozen
or so reviews *I* have written on that site, more than half do not actually
represent my views, and I wrote them solely to provoke a response. I know
for a fact that several other people have the same approach.)<<<


Barbara now:

It is unfortunate that some people lack the integrity to post honest
comments, rather than trying to "buck trends." However, I assume you do not
know *everyone* who has ever posted a comment about POA on IMDb or Yahoo
Movies. And there are plenty of negative ones, which were the ones I was
referring to.


>>>GulPlum wrote:

However, within *this* community - all of whom are fans - according to the
poll started yesterday evening, those who actively dislike the movie are at
about 8% (plus another 11% with serious reservations about the movie, even
if they liked it). Since you're so fond of the numbers, the VAST majority
of people here liked the movie. I appreciate that this puts you in a
significant minority and probably frustrates you, but your gross
generalisations do have another side, and the majority of fans *here* are
happy.<<<


Now Barbara:

That's a very interesting point you make. You say the VAST majority of
people here liked the movie, according to the polls. But this list is
comprised of over 2300 people, most of whom did not respond to the poll. In
fact, my calculations show that only 3% (76 poll respondents divided by 2328
list members x 100 = 3.26%) of the list responded to your poll at all. The
definition of "majority" according to Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary is
"a number greater than half of a total." Therefore, the simple majority of
the group would be one member more than 50% of the membership (2328 list
members divided by 2 + 1 = 1165 members). Your "majority" is 68 members.
We do not really know what the "majority" of list members truly think of
this movie but we do know that your statement "a majority of the fans *here*
are happy" is VASTLY unfounded.


>>>GulPlum:

Whether or not professional reviewers' opinions are or aren't important
(you don't seem to be able to make up your mind) and whether or not the
vast majority of fans hail the movie (look at any of the polls not just
here), you prefer to accentuate the negative comments, which is fair
enough. But you cannot convince anyone that on a purely numerical basis,
those who dislike the movie (whether or not they've read the book) are a
majority of any kind, and in no way a significant one.<<<


Barbara again:

Actually what I said is this:

> I don't think reviews are always the be all and end all of whether or not
a
> movie is good. . . . And ultimately, whether or not the movie critics make
> a living at reviewing movies, their review is still their opinion. I don't
> necessarily think their opinion is any more valid than the opinions of
other
> fans, myself included.


In addition, I was stating my opinion about the movie, which is negative. I
cannot accentuate positive comments if I did not enjoy the movie.


>>>GulPlum:

Again, nobody here can speak for "the fans" as a general mass, but from
comments made by the fans *here*, most people seem to have seen the movie
twice, three times or even more (in my case, 8 1/2).

<snip>

On the other hand, we are in a community of about 2,300 (although the vast
majority are inactive) fans here, so please don't try to dismiss this group
as unrepresentative of the fandom at large. And certainly not the ADULT
fandom.<<<


Barbara:

And again, your supporting argument is that most people who have commented
on this list are fans of the movie. However, as you yourself mention, this
list has over 2300 members and the vast majority are surely inactive. (I
assume you are using "majority" with its correct definition this time?)
Although I do not "dismiss the group as unrepresentative of the fandom at
large," I do wonder what the regular lurkers and non-posters think of the
movie. However, if they all posted tomorrow that they love the movie, I
would certainly support their right to their opinions. I have no need to
impose my views on anyone.


I, Barbara, had previously written:

>And why can't anyone who is pro-POA address their comments in regards to
>liking the movie instead of why I AM WRONG to not like it?


>>>GulPlum:

OK, I find that comment patently unfair and verging on the personally
insulting (I don't know if it's deliberate; I'm a little touchy right
now).<<<


Barbara:

Guilty conscience? Perhaps my comment feels personal to you because you made
it personal when you sent me an unsolicited private e-mail calling me
mean-spirited and insulting my intelligence.


>>>GulPlum:

Could you please quote any message numbers mentioning that "[you are] WRONG
to not like it"? Because I spent a considerable amount of time this morning
trying to find something that even implies that sentiment, but couldn't.
I'm not claiming that nobody's said it, I just can't find it and would like
your help.<<<


Barbara:

This isn't canon, I don't have to support my statement with a quote. I
stated my feeling that you have attempted to tell me I'm wrong in my views
about the movie, or wrong in expressing my views without some sort of
back-up. However, I don't have to support my opinions and feelings about the
movie with proof. They are FEELINGS and OPINIONS.


>>>GulPlum:

And, for the record, it *is* wrong to expect a film to
play the same way a book reads.<<<


Barbara:

And I disagree. I don't think anyone is "wrong" in their preferences. I
fully expect a movie adaptation of a book to reflect the plotline,
characterizations and other relevant items of the book. Especially when the
movie is one of a series of movies being made to follow a series of
much-loved books, and when it is third after two movies that have already
set the scene. As my husband said, if a movie is going to diverge from the
primary plot points in a book, they should name the movie something else.
Again, that is my opinion.


>>>GulPlum:

For instance, three Quidditch matches is PoA would make the movie
boring. It's not a movie about Quidditch.<<<


Barbara now:

I find the Quidditch scenes enjoyable to watch, not to mention important in
Harry's life, which, as you mentioned, is the point of view we are seeing
things from.



I, Barbara, had written:

>So far today I've been told by various list members than I am
>mean-spirited towards the movie because I didn't like it, I don't "get
>subtlety," and now I'm unreasonable. I've also been told I don't make a
>"rational argument" for not liking the movie, as if I have to back of my
>FEELINGS and PREFERENCES with factual information. And I'm taking these
>points of view personally?!


>>>GulPlum:

"various list members"? So you mean someone other than myself has said
those things? If yes, then perhaps you should realise that there might be
something to the perception. If not, then please refrain from engaging in
bombast and making untrue sweeping generalisations.

Yes, I said all of those things to you off-list. . . .Either you're not
reading, not wanting to read, or find yourself incapable of hearing
*anything* good said about this movie - that's why I called you
mean-spiritied about it (incidentally, I also suggested that you've extended
that mean-spiritedness to those who liked the movie - maybe I'm wrong, but I
leave others to agree or disagree with that assessment).<<<


Barbara now:

You seem proud of having said those things to me, which I find very sad. I
have not directed any of my comments about POA to anyone in particular until
you came along and made it personal and you continue to do so. I have been
quite content to simply express my displeasure about the movie which this
list allows me to do. However, it is you (and a few notable others) who have
insisted that, for various reasons, I am not being reasonable in my opinion
(i.e., book does not equal movie, JKR loved it so who am I to complain,
etc.). The VAST majority of posters on this list (and I am going by actual
posts, not members) have expressed their opinions about the movie, whether
they disliked it or liked it, discussed the merits of certain scenes and the
regrettable omission of others and respected each other's views while doing
so.


>>>GulPlum:

And if you hadn't noticed, this forum is for "grown ups". Am I *completely*
unreasonable in my expectation that people should be prepared to back up
their "feelings" with some kind of rationalisation beyond "it's not like
the book"?<<<


Barbara writes:

Yes.