rambling thoughts on pacifism

[Scott]

Kimberly wrote:
"As I'm the one who got this ball rolling, and some of the comments 
have been in my general direction, I spent the afternoon considering 
the situation and trying to come to a fuller understanding of what I 
feel and why I feel that way, so I can explain my position."

--I too helped start this thread. As we seem to both have some sort 
of pacifst position I think maybe I should try to help justify my own 
position.

I find all types of people, human behaviour, and philosophy extremely 
fascinating. So I try to look at situations with an open eye I admit 
that my own views can be distracting. I believe that I am in some 
sense a pacifist, but I don't want to be stuck with that -ism, and 
not have my on views and opinions regardless of how they stack up 
against pacisfism.

I, like Amy (?) have a deep belief that no one is completely beyond 
the point of change. It seems to me that we are born with as much 
potential for good as for evil. That's why I love HP so much because 
it's about free will and Harry has to make decisions that can change 
his life. BUT it's those decisions that determine who he is. 

Naama said:
"First, I don't think there is any questin that Harry will use AK to 
kill Voldemort. It's an Unforgivable curse, and  from the 
disapproving way that Sirius said that Crouch allowed using 
<accidental snip>legitimate way to fight evil - at least by Sirius 
and probably by all  the "really good" guys (Dumbledore, Sirius, 
Lupin, James, Lily, ..  etc.). If Harry somehow gets to learn how to 
use the curse, the only  reason I can see for it to happen, is to 
show him *not* using an  Unforgivable curse, no matter what the 
stakes are. BUT, that's not to  say that he will not destroy Voldy by 
other means, that are  considered legitimate. But then, unlike 
Kimberley and Scot, I do not  have a problem with killing in self 
defense."

--If I were ever in such a position I don't really know what I would 
do. I think it's something that we can only speculate on, and pray 
that we never have to make such a choice. 

Kimberly
"I'm not taking offense, as I'm sure that wasn't meant toward Scott 
and I directly, but  I just wanted to mention that there are almost 
*always* other options that do not involve the ending of someone's 
life.  I confess, as I did before, that I have not come to a complete 
understanding of the issue, nor are my views set in stone.  If I ever 
have children, I may change my mind completely, but as it stands now, 
my answer to your question would be yes.  I would really not kill any 
enemy that threatened my life and the life of my family or friends.  
I might jump on their back and stick a handy wand-like object up 
their nose, or any of dozens of other possibilities, but I would not 
purposely and knowingly kill them. I'm not sure what is irresponsible 
or unrealistic about that."

--I agree with you Kimberly. My views are not "this is true, this is 
what I believe" in this case. I am open and certainly by no means am 
I saying that I think one way is right. But I can take the idea 
seriously, and I do.
 
Amy said:
"I just want to note that most of the pacifists I've known, whether 
in person or through their writings, far from operating from a fear 
of mistakes, do look reality in the face and are making extremely 
brave and difficult choices."

Kimberly responded:
"I think you're right, Amy.  The reason I can't say definatively what 
I think is that I haven't taken the time to do the soul-searching and 
make the considered decision.  I'm really starting to think that's 
the easy way.  Not choosing.  It means that if I were in the 
situation, and did kill someone, I could console myself with 
society's view that killing is ok under the right circumstances, and 
if I *didn't* kill, and there were really bad consequences, I could 
console myself the other way.  I really admire those who know their 
hearts and have made the decision.  I don't think that anyone who 
takes that time to do the soul-searching and make a considered 
decision ahead of time is taking the easy way out.  I still don't 
know how I'll come out of this, but I am learning more about who I am 
and what I expect of myself while I struggle with the concept."

--I agree. I don't think there are or should be any easy answers. I 
need more time to consider this in light of my own life, and 
experiences.

"Sorry that my first post on OT is such a downer"

--Not at all. Thanks for raising such interesting thoughts.

Scott