The Many Tongues of HP

[charisjulia]

In my last message I was being rather critical of the Greek 
translation of the HP books and Grey Wolf replied by pointing out the 
difficulties of a successful translation. Sorry if this answer comes 
slightly late, but I wanted to borrow the Greek version first from my 
cousin before writing, so as to be absolutely sure of what I `m 
saying and to supply myself with a few direct quotes. But, hey, I've 
answered posts much later that this before now :--)

*    *    *

Before I turn to some of Grey Wolf's observations I `d like to clear 
something up. 

Grey Wolf wrote:

>You're being excessively critical, and I guess you haven't had a 
>real 
>try at translating a book.  

Well, now, I have to admit that in a way you `re right. I have never 
actually been an * official* translator of anything. That is to say, 
I have never translated a whole book from start to finish nor had 
anything I've translated published. I am, however, bilingual and have 
therefore been translating things almost since I could speak. My 
English and my Greek are equally good, though I will make the 
occasional mistake in both languages and do have my weak points. My 
written English, for example, is way worse than my written Greek, as 
I rarely have a chance to exercise it. On the other hand, most of the 
books I read are in English, for I `m generally not too fond of Greek 
prose. 


But translating passages, songs, jingles, nonsense verses, oh, just 
about anything comes my way, is something I do do a lot of . As a 
matter of fact, I am seriously thinking of giving up Law, which I am 
currently studying and in which my interest is minimal, to go for 
Foreign Languages and Translation. And, yes, I do recognize the 
difficulties it entails. I have been there, racking my brains for 
hours on end trying to remember a word that just will * not* be found 
or juggling meanings around in an attempt to find the right 
combination. And, no, I would never be so critical of another's 
efforts had I not had a go at it myself. 


But as far as the Potter series is concerned, I have. I've translated 
quite a few chapters from the books and a great deal of my favourite 
parts. Most especially I `ve concentrated on the verses, riddles and 
names in the books as these _ are_ the hardest to tackle. And, just 
for the record, I've found translations I prefer for every single one 
of the examples I brought up in my last post.

*    *    *

Grey Wolf wrote:

>There are two 
>ways to translate a poem: keep the info, and forfait the rhymes, or 
>keep the rhymes and forfeit the info. It is almost impossible >
(although 
>depends heavily on the words used) to keep both the info and the 
>rhymes/tempo/rythem of a poetry when translating. And a good 
>translator 
>doesn't even try: in a pick, we are told (yes, I've been a 
>translator 
>myself) to skip the rhymes and keep the information.


Well, I `m going to have to disagree with you here, There always * 
is* a good translation that retains both the info and the rhymes etc. 
And then one or two to spare as well.  Language is a tool made by 
humans to be used by humans and, what's more, a most complicated and 
comprehensive tool at that. If you know juuuust that right way to 
tweak it you can do almost anything you want with it. Putty in your 
hands, I'm telling you. The question is, of course, whether you have 
the determination, patience and (mostly) time to search around for 
the best tranalation you can possibly get. 


>Just for the record, the Spanish editions keeps the original names 
>for 
>the balls. In fact, it keeps the original names for all the things 
>except those who's name is a verb which describes it's function, in 
>which case it has been tranlated (put-outer -> "apagador"; howler -> 
>"aullador"; remember-all -> "recordadora")


That's a good rule, IMO, and the one that I `ve adopted in my own 
translations of the HP books. It would  also seem to be the rule the 
Greek translator has gone by, some times more successfully than 
others. To recount your examples, "sbistiras" is good, being the 
direct opposite of "anaptiras" (cigarette lighter). "Exapsalmos" 
(howler) is unfortunate as it's a word most children would not be 
familiar with. Otherwise it's quite OK really. "Mpala mnimis" 
(remembrall) could be better. I see no reason to not make it one word 
("Mnimompala")


>However, there is one thing that you have to keep in mind. It is 
>easy 
>to keep those names when tranlating into another language that uses 
>the 
>latin alphabet. All you get is boys twisting their mouths around 
>letters that make sense in their language, arranged strangely. They 
>may 
>say them differently, but they can still read them. This is nowhere 
>as 
>easy when translating into a language (like Greek) that uses another 
>alphabet.


Actually, there's no great difference. In Greek all you get is people 
twisting their mouths around the same exact words, that are however 
spelt with different symbols. Perhaps you `re thinking that there is 
a different logic to reading and writing in Greek, as there (or so 
I'm told) behind the Chinese alphabet. But the idea is in fact just 
the same. The Greek and the Latin alphabets are closely related and 
the problems that would thus arise from spelling an English word with 
Greek letters are trifling.


>To translate those names you'd have to go for a phonetic tranlation, 
>which can be very difficult with words that you're not sure you can 
>pronounce with sounds of your own langauge. Give a try, for example, 
>at 
>phonetically transcribing this Spanish old-timer: "El perro de San 
>Roque no tiene rabo porque Ramón Rodriguez se lo ha robado". If 
you're 
>English speaking, you cannot phonetically translate it, since you 
>simply haven't a "rr" sound, nor even an aproximate (and you've got 
>6 
>in the phrase). Even simpler: try phonetically transcribing "España" 
>or 
>even "Jarama". The sounds "ñ" and "j" are not in English language. 
>If 
>the books had been in Spanish, and one of the balls had been named 
>"jaraña" I don't know what I would have done to tranlate it into 
>English. I don't know Greek, but I can imagine that faced with the 
>task, I would have also eliminated the names (although I would have 
>gone for something more imaginative, I admit).
>

I think I understand what you're saying, but I fail to see what 
difference it makes. This is a question of accent really, isn't it? 
The Greek "r" sounds, I believe, pretty much like the Spanish one (a 
rolling "r") and, no, I cannot think of a way to put it on paper in 
an English context. Similarly there is no possible way to write the 
Greek letter "gama" using the Latin alphabet. Huh, forget about 
writing it. Most foreigners I've come across can't even * hear* it 
properly at first. 

However, I have no qualms over substituting the English "r" for the 
Greek one or using a "g" in the place of the third letter of the 
Greek alphabet. The effect is nothing different to that of a German 
saying "winifersity" instead of university. It's the same word. Just 
a different pronunciation, which in English doesn't sound quite 
right. But as long as the German when talking about universities 
isn't saying "kerplofulots" , they are likely to have no trouble in 
communicating with the average English speaker. And anyway, this 
isn't about some Greek kids coming across some English kids, 
saying "Bludger" and then squabbling over who's pronounsed it 
properly. Let the Greek kids say it their own way. It isn't radically 
different from the English one.

I said:
>> And there's a lot more of that. Moaning Myrtle is "Mirtia (a Greek 
>> girl's name) who cries" (does that even properly qualify as a 
>>name?) 
>> and the Whomping Willow becomes the "Willow that hits". The final 
>> blow for me came when I discovered the translation for the 
>>Marauder's 
>> Map: The "Magic Map". Similarly, Weasley's Wizard Wheezes becomes 
>> the "Magic Tricks of the Weasleys". 

Grey Wolf responded:
>
>I have to point out that "Moaning" means "who moans" (i.e. cries) 
>and 
>"Whomping" means "who womps" (i.e. hits). They're descritptive, and 
>must be translated. If you keep "Moaning Myrtle" in other 
>langauages, 
>the entire meaning is lost, and that must never happen. In Spanish, 
>it's "Myrtle la Llorona", already hard to pronounce. Since Greek 
>requires changing the letters, I aplaud that they change the name to 
>something similar but pronouncable by Greek children.
>
>
>I agree that the Maurader's map should have included a mention to 
>marauders, but "Magic Tricks of the Weasleys" looks quite all right, 
>form a translation point of view.


Well, what do you mean by changing the letters? If you mean 
translating the word "Whomping" into Greek, of course that is a 
decision I too applaud, no question about it. The meaning has to come 
across. But if you're referring to the conversion of "Whomping" 
into "who whomps", well, then that's a different matter, because I 
would argue that Greek requires no such thing. In fact keeping the 
word as a verb form used as an adjective would sound *much * better. 
The particular verb form I would recommend here would be a participle 
(er, at least I think that that's the right word for "metoxi". I 
never studied English grammar.) Anyway, the name Whomping Willow is a 
play on "weeping willow", a phrase that exists in Greek as well. 
(itia i kleousa) Something like "Itia I Tiptousa/Dernousa" or 
whatever would be much better.


Oh, and incidentally, I made a bit of a mistake there in my last 
post. It is not "Magic Tricks of the Weasleys" or the "Willow that 
Hits." Rather, it's "magic tricks of the Weasley's", the "willow that 
hits" and etc. I don't know if this makes much of a difference to 
your mind, but me, it peeves. A capital is what makes a name a name.


And, no, even "Magic Tricks of the Weasleys" is no competition in my 
opinion to "Weasley's Wizard Wheezes". Such poor translating implies 
that there is no word in Greek that could be used to mean "wheeze" 
(which I think you will agree is something quite different from a 
trick-- and especially magic trick, which to me suggests a conjuror 
at a children's party.) And this, in fact, is where we reach the 
heart of my disapproval of the current translation. It undervalues 
the richness of the Greek language, which is in fact a beautiful and 
expressive one. The translation is drab, dull, flat, banal. Greek 
isn't.


>The only two weak spots are the map's name and the riddle, 
>which could have been handled better. That alone doesn't make a 
>translation horrible.

 Err, the * only* two weak spots? You really want me to launch into a 
fully—blown rant hauling out * every* disagreement I have with the 
translation? Hmm . . . Nah . . .  I think I'll leave that for another 
day.

>>Charis Julia, who doesn't even want to get * started* on Tom 
>>Riddle, 
>> who's name, yes, Tom Riddle and * not* Anton Hert and tricky 
>>passages 
>> such as the Uranus joke. How did other translator's manage here?
>
>Tom Ryddle (yes, the "y> " is intentional) needs to have his name 
>changed, or else the final showdown in the CoS makes no sense. 
>Remember 
>that "I am Lord Voldemort" in *every* language must be a play on 
>words 
>of Tom Marvolo Riddle.

Err, well, I don't want to come across as overly sensitive or 
anything, but, Grey Wolf, you're really making me feel a bit as if 
you're scolding a little child here. Of course I realise that the 
anagram of Tom Riddle's name here is central to the plot. Same as I 
know that "moaning" means  "to moan" and that the Greek alphabet is 
different to the Latin one. And, yes, of course I took these things 
into consideration before expressing opinions. In fact it took me a 
long time to overtly conclude that the Greek edition of the series 
was unsuccessful exactly because I * do* appreciate the difficulties 
that the translator must have faced. But, now, as I said at the 
beginning of this message, I `ve tried my own hand at this. As far 
the I AM LORD VOLDEMORT thing is concerned, the problems are actually 
not as great as one would imagine. Check out the two names for 
yourself. What you are translating here are * sounds*, as opposed to 
meanings, and therefore, exactly because Tom Marvolo Riddle * sounds* 
the same no matter what language you're using and the Greek for Lord 
is conveniently Lordos, all that's left to do is play around with the 
middle name (which, I concede, has to be sacrificed) till you can fit 
in the "eimai o" (I am)  part in. 


>The Uranus joke is not that funny in 
>the original anyway, and so, when translated into other languages 
>still 
>makes little sense why Ron would say it. It's been discussed before, 
>though, so check the archives. As far as I can see, the translators 
>have done a good job. 

Actually, I agree that the joke is not all that funny. I find it 
rather rude to say the truth. But it's been put there and it * does* 
serve a purpose in illuminating the character's pubescent age. 
However, since a direct translation is no good, the translator should 
either have exchanged it for a joke of her own or done away with the 
whole exchange completely. It would make more sense to have Trelawney 
miffed at the Gryffindor boys for giggling over the "midget in 
glasses" thing. Keeping the passage as it is with no joke anywhere 
discernable, merely leaves you wondering what on earth got into her 
when she later loads them with extra homework. (BTW, I was around 
when the matter was brought up on the main list and do remember that 
the Polish edition makes a play on "heavenly body", with Ron then 
saying something like "can I see you're body too, Lavender?" This 
would have worked in Greek as well.)


Finally, Grey Wolf, just to prove my point, I'd like to submit the 
following. The official Greek translation of the sphinx's riddle and 
the one I came up with myself. I'm using gringlish here, that is 
Greek with latin letters. (Read "i" as "ee" in beetroot, "e" in egg, 
x as "h" in herring, "th" as in thistle, "ou" as "u" in Uranus and, 
err, don't worry about the rest :--)

Prota skepsou pos to simperenis,
Meta, tin arxi sto hnari kathos beneis 
Ke tin mesi tis paxnis kathos vgenis
Telos, na pis s' emena ena ap' ta arthra
Na teriazi stin kedistra, stin ifantra.
Ki enose ta tora ola touta me mia pleksi
Ke idou, sou bgeni i polipothiti leksi.
Tote mono pia esi thena kerdisis
An bris oti aidiazis na filisis.


English translation: 

"First think of how you conclude it,
Then, the beginning as you enter the trail
And the middle of the dew as you come out.
Finally, tell me one of the articles 
That suits the darner, the weaver.
And now bring all of these together with a twist
And behold, you are left with the desired word.
Only then will you win
If you find what you be disgusted to kiss."


If you can make any sense of the first four lines I congratulate you. 
I cannot.


Prota pes ti' ne panta arxi tis arxis,
St' apotelioma telos, ma sthn mesi den tha bris.
Istera skepsou tis Egiptou theo,
Tis xoras ap' opou katagome `go.
Telos, ti skepazi ta kria proina
Grasidi ke dentra –- ma bgale to pa--
Sirapse ta mazi ke apanta afto :
Me pio zoo tha itan ena filaki frikto?

English translation:

"First say what is always the beginning of the beginning,
The end to the end, but you wouldn't find in the middle."

The first letter of "arxi" (beginning) and the last one 
to "apotelioma" (ending, end) is _a _. There is no such letter 
in "mesi" (middle).


"Then think of a god of Egypt,
The country from which I come from."

I'm rather proud of this as it nicely slips in a reference to the 
sphinx itself. What I'm looking for here is Ra. This could be a bit 
iffy of course, as I can't be 100% sure younger readers would  be 
familiar with the name. However I can definitely remember that I knew 
it at age 8 or 9, and I'm pretty sure I learnt it at school while 
studying the Ancient Egyptian civilization in history, so that covers 
that. Besides, I then have Harry think about how Hermione pestered 
him and Ron about the ancient Egyptian gods after the Weasley's 
vacation there the summer before. He recalls that one name she 
mentioned was Ra.

"Finally, on cold mornings, what does cover 
The grass and the trees – but take away the pa--"

The answer here is paxni = dew. Without the pa—we're left with –xni.

"Stitch them together and answer me this:
With what animal would a kiss be awful?"

A—ra—xni. Araxni. Or in English, spider.


It may not be a brilliant translation, but at any rate it makes 
sense, the whole of it rhymes and –you'll just have to trust me on 
this –and the beat of the words is right. (something very important 
in Greek poetry Greek uses stresses, meaning that the intonation of a 
word has got to be exactly  where it is, you can't play around with 
it as in English. E.g. it's always a-RA-xni, not A-raxni or ara—XNI, 
CHA—ris, not Cha –RIS. ) 


I respect your observations, Grey Wolf, and I hope that you will 
respect that my opinion remains unchanged. I'm truly not being unduly 
critical, excessively demanding or arrogant. But the translation is 
just not good. I would like to apologise, however, if I came over as 
rather more bellicose than I intended. I sometimes do that when 
something matters to me, and this for whatever reason, does. Inside, 
however, I always remain perfectly calm. Well . . .  almost always.


Charis Julia, who is not as obnoxious as she sometimes sounds. Really.