Main List Problems - new problem identified

[Cindy C.]

A few random remarks.  And this is long, I'm afraid.  Sorry.

But first . . . 

I just want to echo the sentiments of those who have thanked the 
list administrators.  I am not one now, but I was in the past.  And 
I can certainly tell you that it is difficult and time-consuming 
work, and there is a *lot* of it, not to mention the touchy 
interpersonal issues.  I do appreciate the efforts that have been 
made to improve things, but, well . . . it seems that there is much 
frustration out there that still needs to be addressed.

Judy:

> I'm one of the elves, and I can tell you that we have been totally
> swamped since OoP came out.  

Oh, I believe this!  Definitely.

<eases back into padded rocking chair, clutches worn shawl around 
shoulders, prepares to pontificate>

When I was involved in list administration, there were 42 people.  
Some people just lurked, but people worked pretty hard.  For 
instance, I did *thousands* of pending messages while I was an 
elf/mod (pending messages are messages from moderated members that 
need to be approved, rejected or edited).  On a busy day, I might 
check the pending messages section and find eight messages -- many 
days there would only be two or three when I checked in.  If there 
were eight, I'd roll my eyes and dive in, and it might take 30 
minutes just to handle those pending messages.  Handling eight, I 
believed, was a lot of work.

I have heard that pending messages activity is through the roof now 
-- there are sometimes over 50 pending messages at one time.  This 
means that some list administrators are probably killing themselves 
to keep up, which leads to burn out, errors and long delays before 
approved messages hit the list.  This cannot be any fun.

Complicating matters, I suspect, is that there are not enough people 
working in list administration.  There are only 26 people on the 
list administration team right now.  When I was there, however, it 
never happened that all mods/elves/geists would be actively working 
at the same time.  People have real lives, need breaks, travel, have 
exams, etc.  And some folks have specialized roles and don't do the 
day-to-day work (sending howlers, handling pending messages, posting 
admins, greeting new members) at all.  In short, you need a lot of 
people working to make a list of this size work well.

I glanced at the names of the members of the list administration 
team, and, unless things have changed dramatically, I can guess that 
there are only around *15* people actively doing the day-to-day work 
of moderating a list of over 10,000 people.  We have known OoP was 
coming since January, we had an administrative reorganization in 
April, but for some reason months have passed and we don't have 
enough warm bodies, IMHO.  

That, to me, could easily be where the core problem lies.  So if we  
insist on maintaining a skeleton crew and list volume stays at 
record levels, no one is going to be happy.

The solution, I think, is to get enough people involved in list 
administration so that the list administrators can enforce the 
rules, read the list so they know what is happening there, and 
hopefully enjoy the list themselves as best they can.  

This list has a huge membership, and lots of folks would undoubtedly 
be willing to help shoulder the load.  I think we should take them 
up on it.  Yes, it takes time to train new people, but if this 
process isn't started now, we'll be no closer to fixing these 
problems.


Grey Wolf:

>You need help, but not with pendings. Pendings 
> are tying up most of the elves's time, and is serving no purpose. 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there.

Just so we all understand how the system works (unless it has 
changed -- correct me if I'm wrong, list administrators), all new 
members begin on moderated status.  Their messages must be approved 
or rejected by a list administrator, and if they violate the rules, 
they are advised on where they have strayed.  Most folks learn the 
ropes fairly quickly as a result, and they are usually taken off 
moderated status after submitting four good posts on separate days 
that comply with the rules in all respects.  If the message is 
rejected or edited by an elf, the message does not count as one good 
enough to justify de-modding the member.  Thus, the system is very 
labor-intensive, but the list is protected from all spam and posts 
that violate the rules.  

The problem, though, is the system can't run itself.  It is 
unreasonable to expect any list administrator to spend more than 30 
minutes a day handling pending messages, IMHO.  It can be a real 
grind.  But if the list had a sufficient number of administrators, 
many of the quality control problems would be solved, I suspect.

>The elves don't need more help in pendings - they need to revise 
>the system and start punishing those that are breaking the rules 
>sistematically. Good, fast filters would be to send back any posts 
>breaking the rules with a note stating "read the FAQ" or "read the 
>rules". 

Well . . . that's pretty much the way it worked when I was in list 
administration.  We tried to be courteous and explain to members why 
their posts had this or that problem, and most people seemed to 
appreciate that approach.  But that takes time.  And personnel.


 
> And once the pendings are streamlined, get a few sub-elves with 
>little or no mod powers to help identify those posters that are 
>breaking the rules outside moderated status. Some mod could start a 
>list of offenders, and if a name gets called too much (like for 5 
>different posts) put them back to moderated immediately.

Yep, that gets done too, more or less.  When the system isn't 
overloaded, the administrators do pay attention as best they can and 
they address problems off-list in a very efficient and courteous 
manner.

 
Judy:

> I think Debbie has a good point; the list may become more 
>interesting in a few weeks, once school has started. 

Hmmmm.  Maybe.  Or we may be in an August vacation lull, with 
everyone gearing up for a new wave of thestral questions in 
September.  

<feels cold chill>

Sheryll:

>Personally, I think starting another list smacks of an
>elitest, "we're better than you and can't join us
>until you're good enough" attitude. I honestly don't
>think that's the impression that we would want to give
>new people looking for a place to discuss Harry
>Potter. 

Amen to that!  

Personally, if we started a second list that did *not* have an open 
membership, I wouldn't join it as a matter of principle.  I think 
closed discussion groups are divisive, not nice, and not necessary, 
really.  Nah, I think if we have a second list, it has to be open.  
The minute we start saying so-and-so isn't good enough or popular 
enough for Our Special List, well . . . I just can't get on board 
with that.  I might start having flashbacks to certain playground 
experiences I'd rather not think about.  :-D

Along those lines . . . 

I came awfully close to just starting another list with an open 
membership and letting the chips fall where they may.  Hey, when 
faced with a clear problem, I'd usually prefer to do *something* 
rather than do nothing.

And then I chickened out.

<hangs head in shame>

Man, I don't want to moderate some new list and deal with all the 
headaches.  I don't want the list administrators to be angry with 
me, viewing the second list as unwanted competition.  I couldn't 
guarantee that old friends would start posting again.  People who 
have spoken have very different ideas already about how such a list 
ought to work.  And I sure wouldn't want the thing to flop.  

So.  I guess I just have to wait and hope things get better before 
they get worse.  

Seriously, though.  I do appreciate that the list administrators are 
paying attention to this discussion and are making good points.  I 
assume that each of you is speaking in his/her personal capacity.  

So I hope it's OK to ask this directly:  do you have a plan to deal 
with the problems that folks have identified in this discussion, or 
are you working on one?  Can you tell us what you have decided and 
what you are considering?  And what can we do to help?

Finally, here's a very radical suggestion I haven't heard yet . . . 

I think the list administrators should close the list to new posting 
for one week (or longer) and should use the time to regroup.  Invite 
new elves, train them, and give them jobs.  Review the posting since 
OoP to find repeat offenders and place them back on moderated 
status.  Completely re-work the old VFAQs to reflect the repetitive 
questions folks are asking right now, and then send it out to every 
member.  Prepare a document explaining the HPfGU customs on 
snipping, with examples, and send that out.  That sort of thing.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm willing to be patient and give 
you all time to do that.  I think if we pull together, we can fix 
this place up a bit.

Cindy -- also thanking the list administrators for allowing us to 
borrow OT-Chatter to have this discussion