Main List Problems

[Grey Wolf]

> > Lorrie Says (okay take deep breath and don't get pissed off) "my
> attitude that this is okay? Excuse me Wendy, but never did I say that
> this was okay, no did 'my attitude' imply that.

On the contrary, Lorrie, the entire initial exposition carried a clear 
undertone of "I don't remember the rules, so what?" that is exactly 
what Wendy pointed out. I didn't actually read it that way, but going 
back right now I see clearly what Wendy spotted. IMO, you should have 
clarified then that you weren't proud of not remembering the rules.

> Also there is a
> discussion on the Main List about the InterNet and Understanding...
> you might have a look at that one. I'm only suggesting that people
> CALM DOWN a little about breaking the rules. 

You're certainly not going to achive that by shouting at us. I can 
asure you that my hearing is quite good, no need to raise the voice. 
See, I'm concerned. I'm no mod, but I can smell a flame war as well as 
the next one, and this topic is starting to burn. Please calm down, 
this list is for calmed discussion of HP off-topic.

And I don't agree - "calming down about breaking the rules" is, at this 
point, a bad move. The rule breakers are already taking too many 
liberties. You don't want to allow them even more.

> I'm NOT saying being
> lazy is alright, just a little expected. I do think a little less of
> the Veterans who are JUST as guilty.

I disagree. Veterans, from my point of view, aren't breaking the rules 
- they aren't posting at all. See, my definition of newbie is one that 
breaks the rules and has done so since they joined. Thus, some aren't 
ever newbies, and others are newbies for years. Maybe there are a 
couple of people that have been around for a few months and are 
breaking the rules. Sincerely, they are just a statistical footnote 
compared to the newbies (my definition) that are breaking rules right 
now.

> And yes, to a degree it is to be
> expected. OotP opened a whole new can of worms for everyone. It ain't
> just new people  doing alot of this but people who have been around a
> whole lot longer than you or I have. Is it right? No, has it happened > Yes!

Well, I for one (and I've been around a long time) didn't expect this 
to happen. I didn't go all dizzy in the head because of the new book. 
My main theory - MD - was given more canon than almost any other, and 
that didn't make me go bonkers. I did raise my fist in victory sign 
after the "need to know" canon and after Dumbledore's lying, but that's 
it. And it certainly didn't spill on to my posts. No, I don't think 
blatant rule-breaking should be expected or allowed or ignored.

> > Lorrie says (no being snide I promise :) ) I'm so glad that someone
> on the planet has the brain power to remember EVERYTHING. I *wish* I
> could do that.

Interesting... Most of the members of this list carry in their heads 
the entire canon of HP. At present, this includes 4 books (of 
above-average length), 2 schoolbooks and countless interviews. OoP is 
being examined now, so it's canon is shacky at this point. We don't 
remember every comma and full stop, but we do remember the essence and 
the main ideas. Compared to that, the HBF was a small thing.

> To which Lorrie replies: If you feel this strongly, then the only
> solution is to email the OWNERS of the list and keep emailing them
> until they do something about it. Membership is a privilege, not a
> right, but the only one who can do anything are the MODs, List-Elves,
> and OWNERS.

You know, that is exactly what we are doing here. This entire thread is 
a calmed discussion of possible solutions to a problem. Two or three 
mods/list elves are participating, and many more are reading it. There 
is no owner, so you cannot write to him, but we have always felt that 
discussing this in the open rather than everyone submit half-cooked 
ideas directly. Look at my own participation: I suggested two lists, 
but now I realise that it wouldn't work, because another list-member 
has pointed out vital mistakes. Yes, the mods/list elves make the final 
decission, but we're all grown-ups here, we can all come with the right 
answer, and discussing things is the best way to achieve that. 

> > Lorrie says:
> You're really getting too worked up over something that *will* work
> out right.

It's nice to have optimistic people. Unfortunately, I'm one of nature's 
pessimistics, and sincerely, from my PoV things won't get better, 
particularly if left unchecked. Rule breaking is self-maintaining. The 
more rules are broken, the easier it becomes. IMO, things *won't* work 
out right just because. Measures need be taken, and the mods are 
swamped enough as it is. I think that giving them a hand is not that 
bad. I know several of them. They are just human, and have so many 
things in their plate right now that any contribution helps.

> All I'm saying is
> for everyone to quit (pardon the language) bitching about it on list
> and start complaining to the MODS and OWNERS. *Nothing* can be done
> by us, only them. If the list is our Hogwarts, then Take it to the
> Heads of House (the MODS) OR Dumbledore (The Owner).

Excuse me for saying this, but so far the only bitching seems to have 
come from your corner. Yes, Wendy might have been a tad out of tone, 
but everyone else has been maintaining proper tones all along. And, as 
I have mentioned before, we are talking to mods here. They don't live 
in some other, superior, plane of existance. They are here with us. 
Post little because they don't have time, but I have on the very best 
authority that they *are* listening. Oh, and we *can* do something: we 
can come up with solutions, thus making the mods' life easier.

> > >Wendy Wrote: I love the idea of having newcomers to the 
> > group have a period of time in which they can only read posts 
> > without replying. A week or two.
> 
> > Lorrie: I agree with this option. IF enough of us stand behind it.

See, I don't like this. Anyone willing to join but that cannot be 
bodered to obey the rules will join, wait two weeks (without reading, 
or reading very little) and then start as if nothing had happened. 
Besides, at this time, all they would see is that rules in this list 
can be ignored, since everyone is doing so. Which is exactly what we 
*don't* want.

> Lorrie again: All I'm going to say one more time, is that in the end
> this will straighten itself out. People will learn the RULES, they
> will learn to SNIP, they will learn that ONE LINE replies are bad!,
> AND I'd be willing to bet money that in awhile, alot of these people
> WON'T be here.

Maybe. But then again, maybe not. Wishful thinking and sitting around 
for things to get better works wonderfully when things do get better. 
But if they don't, you've wasted a lot of time. Yes, maybe this will 
blow out, but as a pessimist I've learned to hope for the best but 
prepare for the worst, which is what we were trying to do.

> This is a difficult time for the list, the Mods, List-Elves and
> probably Owners as well. Everyone take a deep breath. This is
> SUPPOSED to be fun, relaxing, something that drags us away from the
> insanity of real life. It will get better! 
> Lorrie

Or then again, it might not. And if things don't get better, and we 
don't do anything now, then it might be too late to do anything at all.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf, who wishes to calm things down, but is very aware that he is 
probably not the best to do so.