[HPFGU-OTChatter] Religious Freedom...Was Re: Faith Education

[IggyMcSnurd]

>> Iggy here:
>> *laugh* I would have happily debated the subject with them.  (There 
>> are some things I won't back down from... and defending what I 
>> believe is one of them.)


> Sandy
>Iggy, did you mean to come across like, "Well, you know, if it had 
>been *me*, I'd have gotten into it with them and stood up for my 
>principles"?  (FYI: It's the impression I got.) I put back in what 
>you snipped of Erin's post (and marked it with asterisks) because 
>it's germane to what I want to say.

Iggy here:

No.  How I intended it to come across was:  I am the kind of person who,
if an argument had started, would happily have been in the middle of it.
My close friends know me well enough that, if they disapprove of my
personal views and try to impose theirs on me, they'll have an argument
on their hands.  (*chuckle* I can enjoy debates about religion,
philosophy, and sexuality at the drop of a hat...)

If someone asks if I'll sign a petition I don't agree with, I'll flat
out say "No."  If they ask why, I'll tell them.

And if someone looks at me like they're aghast that I'm not a real
Christian, then they don't know me at all... and I would respond to
their looks by either simply walking away (friends or not) or calling
them on it.

I'm not saying that she failed in defending her principles.  Had she
signed a petition she didn't agree with, then she would have failed.  I
was simply stating that I tend to be (and happily, sometimes) more
willing to have a confrontation about these things.  Personally, I
*enjoy* shaking up people's views about things sometimes and seeing if
their eyes are really open to what's going on.


<snip some Iggy>
> This means that people aren't supposed to be nervous or scared to 
> speak their minds about what they believe... anywhere they want to 
> speak their views... respectfully, at least.  (I've had probably 5 
> conversations about faith and religion with someone down here in 
> the last 3.5 years I've lived here.  Mostly because I worry that, 
> with the grapevine around here, I'd end up being cast out by the 
> entire town simply because I stated a view or two that doesn't mesh 
> with the Bible...)


> Sandy
>(So, 'scuse me, Iggy, but what happened to not backing down on things 
>you believe in? Yes, I'm messing with you here a bit.)

Iggy here:

With this point, I think I worded it a little wrong, or incompletely.  

I am willing to debate things and not back down from them if someone
wants a confrontation, or an open minded discussion.  Unfortunately,
among other things, my landlord is a very "strict and solid" Christian
who tends to have narrow views about some things.  (For one, he's even
biased strongly against Catholics... which is still a form of
Christianity.)  

If me getting into a confrontation with someone about religion and faith
gets back to him (and it would), it could make living in these
apartments difficult.  For one thing, his grandson is my step-son's best
friend... (there goes that friendship out the window...) and there would
possibly other difficulties for the rest of my family here.

While I won't back down from a confrontation, I also won't seek one out
when it could make things difficult for the rest of my family.  If
someone challenges me on something, then I'll back up what I believe...
and it's happened before.  But, at least until we have a house of our
own that we can't get kicked out of or have things become difficult at
for my beliefs, I'm not going to go "borrowing trouble" as it were.

Get the difference?


> Sandy
>I am open about being pagan. I don't try to change anyone else's 
>mind, however, or suggest that my way is THE WAY. (One of my best 
>friends is a Christian family man from Kansas who works in IT; the 
>other is a hippie feminist Buddhist Jew artist from the Bronx who's 
>utterly technophobic...and yes, they are also friends with each 
>other.)

Iggy here:

*grin* If anyone asks me what I believe, I freely let them know I'm a
Neo-Pagan.  I'll also mention that (aside from the occasional discussion
I've had with my wife in the past) those 3-4 conversations I've had have
been with people who have come to our door trying to get us to come to
their church.  I let them know that they'll have to talk to my wife, but
I'm a Neo-Pagan, so I don't attend church.  They ask me what a Neo-Pagan
is, and I let them know my beliefs.

One of the problems I ran into on my last job was when I asked for Oct
31 and Nov 1 off.  They asked me why I needed to get those days off, and
I told them that they are a "holiday of faith" for me.  The manager
asked me about what faith I was, and I told her.  Like many I've
encountered, her first comment was "Oh, you're a Satan worshipper."
Needless to say, I had to spend a good amount of time explaining the
error of that statement.  (She had never even heard of a Wiccan or a
Druid...)  For some reason, since then, I got some very odd shifts, and
had a decision made against me that got me fired in a dispute with
another employee... I was never able to charge them with discrimination
since it was "at will" employment.  

On the good side, Karma hit them in the butt, since they got bought out
and shut down about a month later and without any warning.  Some of them
went to work for the company that had originally owned the other
business, but about 3 months later, *that* company get bought out, shut
down, and all the original employees fired...  (Ain't Karma a **tch to
mess with sometimes?  *grin*)

As for a variety of friends for me... 

My wife is a Southern Baptist,
One of my friends is a "born again" Christian,
My best friends is a gay, black, pagan with a Jewish family,
My sister is a modern day Quaker,
My mom and her family are Roman Catholic,
My dad's family is Southern Baptist, 
And another of my friends is an atheist who's into S&M...

And we all... (Well, those who know each other) get along great.  *grin*




> Sandy
>The thing about most religions is that they insist that *their* 
>scripture is the *right* stuff. (Churches and faiths have become 
>(like other organisms) about ensuring their own survival, rather than 
>about teaching truth.) So any time you engage in debate there has to 
>be a winner and a loser. Only one *side* can be right. And I think 
>that's ridiculous, myself; if any human (or group of humans) could 
>define IT, IT wouldn't (be big enough to) be GOD. IMHO. (Let's hear 
>it for GOD THE INCOMPREHENSIBLE.) End of rant and my religion in a 
>nutshell (appropriate for a nut?).
 
Iggy here:

Personally, I don't think there has to be a winner or loser.  And
neither side *has* to be right.  I feel that the best thing that can
come out of a debate is increased understanding of the other person's
perspective, and an agreement to respect their choice in life.

I've actually spent a few, long conversations with Kelley (from these
lists) about perspectives of faith.  Part of what I do, personally, is
not try to find the differences between the faiths, but rather to find
the core similarities between them.

For example:

What's the real difference between a prayer and an incantation?
Both are a series of words said with intent to enlist the aid of a Power
to help you achieve a desired result.

What's the real difference between Ritual, and a religious Rite such as
Communion?
Both involve the structured use of items, both literal and symbolic, in
a structured manner, and accompanied by prayer/incantations with the
intent to achieve a desired result with the aid of a Power.


What's the real difference between the Ten Commandments and the
Threefold Law?
With the exception of "Thou Shalt Have No God Before Me," it all
basically boils down to:  Be a good person and respect others.


Just my two centaurs worth... (oh, and since I was raised a pixie
earlier, I'll see your pixie and add two House Elves.)


Iggy McSnurd