[HPFGU-OTChatter] re: Prayer and Incantation (was: Religious Freedom...Was Re: Faith Education

[IggyMcSnurd]

> Catlady
>Incantation ... actually, that's word I mostly associate with the
>Potterverse. Do you mean 'spells', also known as Magickal 'work' or
>'doing magic'?  If so, surely using words is the least of it (magick
>can be done with no words at all) -- surely the most important part is
>the intention and the raising, focusing, and sending of 'energy'? To
>me, it is much different than petitionary prayer, in the same way that
>for me to go to the kitchen to fix a cup of tea is different than me
>calling out to Tim: "please, dear sweet Tim, can you be a darling and
>get me a cup of tea?"

Iggy here:

I'm talking about actual spoken spells or prayers... And just as
spells/magick can be done without the spoken word, so can prayer.

It can also be said that acts of faith (which would be the same as inner
magic) can be ultimately doing something yourself.  Your strength of
faith and belief in your higher power ultimately comes from you.  You
chose to believe, or you don't.  It's not placed in you by God, for
instance.  According to the Christian and Hebrew faiths, God gave free
will to mankind.  This is what allows them to choose to whether or not
to believe in Him.  If God put your faith in Him into you through His
direct power, that eliminates the free will and choice.  So if you do
something that is seen as an act of True Faith (as many Christians might
put it...), then the power comes from you in your belief in God.  Your
will and faith are so strong, that you are the one who ultimately
provides the effect, since you (among other things) have the strength of
belief that God will allow you to do what is right.  (That's how *I*
perceive it, at least...)  You don't beseech God for aid, you simply
have the faith that what you are doing will be done.

This is similar to "inner magick" where the power comes from the person
focusing it.  You have a strong enough faith in yourself, or in your
higher power, that you are able to do what you seek to do.  This can be,
as I said, faith in yourself... otherwise known as the Will.  Your
strength in your belief that you can do what you Will to have done (and
that Karma will allow you to... or some other cosmic force or balance)
is not that different than True Faith.  

Do you *believe*you can make that cup of tea?  That's just as important
as believing that Tim can when you ask him to.

*grin*


>> Iggy:
>> What's the real difference between Ritual, and a religious Rite
>> such as Communion?
>> Both involve the structured use of items, both literal and symbolic,
>> in a structured manner, and accompanied by prayer/incantations with 
>> the intent to achieve a desired result with the aid of a Power.

> Catlady:
>If it's liturgical, it's Ritual, regardless whether Pagan, Christian,
>or anything else (e.g. secular). By 'if it's liturgical', I mean if it
>has a script (whether written or memorized) which is always followed
>the same every time the ritual is done ... a lot of the formality in
>secular government courtrooms fits that category. Maybe we can argue
>about whether the secular rituals intend to be aided by a Power. 

Iggy here:

Well... why do a lot of courts still make you swear to "tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth... *so help me God*"?

The "secular" world still incorporates a great deal of religion (usually
the most widely practiced one in that country) without recognizing,
realizing, or acknowledging it.

"In God We Trust" on the US currency...
"God Save the King/Queen" in the UK's anthem...

Just two of the most basic examples...

> Catlady:
>(If we wrote a brand-new script that this is the first time it's used,
>or we just improvised, then why do we call it a Ritual?)

Iggy here:

Because even a script leaves some room for improvisation and variance.
Act in a play sometime, or even go to see one 3 nights in a row.  I will
guarantee you that no two performances will be exactly the same.  (The
high school productions I was in of both "the Crucible", and "A Funny
Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" are *prime* examples of this
rule...)

Also, even if you do something with a different pattern or methodology
each time (as the spirit moves you, so to speak...) but incorporate many
of the same elements or accoutrements, then it adheres to a *basic*
script/format and is still a ritual.

To give you an example, the only time I ever did "Blood and Fire"
magick, I wasn't intending to when I started... but something in me
*during the ritual* told me that I needed to add some of my own blood
into it to give it more power.  So, I cut my thumb and used the blood
from that cut in the ritual itself.  I had never been taught an
"official" or "scripted" manner to do "Blood & Fire" magick, and other
than that, the ritual was the same basic pattern I generally use.  The
difference was that something in me told me that I needed to do
something differently.

I'd also like to point out that I did it on the Winter Equinox, the one
4 years ago with the full moon, and added my own blood.  Makes for a
potent combo.  I was doing the ritual for my life to get better and for
me to get something in the coming year that would help me to feel that I
was living the life I was supposed to be living.  A couple of months
later, something happened in my wife's life (before we officially met)
that caused me to contact me and talk to me about the massive problem
she had encountered.  From there, we began talking a lot more, and a few
months after that... I was moving down to Alabama to be with her.  In
late December, just after Christmas, she found out she was pregnant.  I
became a father and we got married the next year... and I am finally
living a life that I always wanted, but never thought I would have...
I'm even going back to school to get my degree.

Nobody will be able to convince me that the Ritual I did that night
didn't harness some serious power to get me where I am supposed to be...
*grin*


> Catlady:
>
>Btw do you intend to imply that some Christians *deny* that a prayer
>they always say the same way or a part of their worship service that
>is always the same (or their Communion) is a 'ritual'? 

Iggy here:

No, I am directly stating that many members of more accepted beliefs
close their eyes to the similarities between their beliefs, and many of
the others out there.  When you get down to it, Communion is a symbolic
representation of a Ritual that involves the powers of Blood and Life.
(The wine and communion wafer representing the blood and body of
Christ.)

Many Christians acknowledge that it's a Ritual, but even few of those
recognize that it has any similarity with the Rituals of other faiths...
especially the Rituals done by the (Neo-)Pagans.


Just my two centaur's worth (and one man's opinion...)

Iggy McSnurd