Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it

[ER <ression@hotmail.com>]

Well, goodness, that provoked a few responses I wasn't expecting! I 
will try and address your concerns, but let me say at the outset that 
I was (a) trying to inject a little light-heartedness into the 
discussion, (b) trying to suggest a practical scheme for adding 
warnings to FanFic (FF) pieces and (c) offering _my_ point-of-view 
(POV) that FF should try to stick to the spirit of the original. I 
may not be as well versed in the Potterverse as some of you but I 
feel I'm entitled to my POV. You're using an awfully big stick to 
beat an awfully small neophyte. And, as there seems to be some 
confusion on the matter, I'm male not female. I hope that doesn't 
damn me too :)

(apologies for the length of this post - if I missed anybody's 
concerns out, feel to yell or contact me offline).


Saitaina wrote -

Secondly, I am offended that you would consider slash outside the 
norm. For a great many people heterosexual stories are outside their 
normal view of things. I believe that any story, any relationship 
is "normal". Especially considering the great variety of HP stories 
around. And I'm not just talking about slash/het pairings, I'm 
talking about everything from Hermione and Harry to Hagrid and the 
giant squid.

(me) Well, we're fencing with words here. I used "normal"  
not "norm", and they do (I think) have subtly different meanings. 
Normal means (according to my dictionary) "usual" or "typical", and I 
contend that as far as the human race as a whole goes homosexuality 
is neither usual nor typical. A sizeable minority no doubt, but not a 
majority and so not typical. Note that I'm speaking from the POV of 
the human race (modest of me eh ;). Homosexuals are, of course quite 
free from _their_ POV to consider heterosexuality not "normal". Note 
that I very deliberately avoided the use of the word "abnormal" since 
I knew this would cause offence (and I'm not out to annoy anybody, 
impossible though that probably is I'm now fast learning, sigh) and 
more to the point, I'm not sure that "abnormal" is just the opposite 
of normal. Its primary meaning in my dictionary is "exceptional", 
which seems to me to carry a stronger meaning than just not-normal. 
Buggering a cow is probably abnormal, but I don't throw gay sex into 
the same pot. Anyway, the linguists can argue this one if they 
desire ...

And before anybody tells me, I used the word "norm" further on, but 
there I was referring to that which I'd just defined in the previous 
paragraph. Not a mention of homosexuality, I was trying to establish 
what I consider the spirit of the stories and arguing that deviation 
from this (used the word before and I'm using it again, in the sense 
of diverge) merits a warning.


Saitaina also wrote -

Third, why should slash carry warnings if het does not? I don't like 
to read about Hermione getting it on with every male in Hogwarts, yet 
I've accidentally stumbled upon some. Yes, stumbled, there was no 
warning what so ever. At least with my story's it's pretty obvious 
it's slash if the summary says "Draco and Harry are forced to break 
up. Songfic" ("Written in the Stars", AstroTower). Granted a few of 
my stories aren't so clear in summary, such as, "Neville has become 
the wizzarding world's new hero, but is he ready to face those that 
betrayed him?" ("The End of the Beginning", Schnoogle) but I do put 
the fact that it's slash prominently in the author's note as well as 
pairings.

Should not het authors have to do the same if we slash authors do?

(me) I was trying to suggest a means for generating the least amount 
of work. If the majority would like to be warned about slash rather 
than het, then that to me is the simplest way to go. I'm tall but the 
airlines don't make (cattle-class) seats with extra legroom just for 
me, they go for the majority market. I grin and bear it. Just.

I'm sorry you stumbled onto a slut!Hermione-fest - as that differs 
from what I consider to be the spirit of the story. I would have 
liked to have seen a warning. Have a moan at the author. Your own 
warnings seem admirable and just the sort of thing I like to see, 
just a line, nothing more and no need to apologise for it.


Heidy Tandy wrote -
--------------------------------------------------------------------
ER also wrote:
> What is this nonsense leading up to? My view is that one should 
warn 
> about the things that are _likely_ to upset or offend the 
_majority_ 

Nonsense? It's a logical extension of the premise that one should warn
about things that are likely to upset or offend a number of people, if
not a full scale majority (and unlike you, I don't think that the
majority of people in the over-13 side of the HP fandom are offended 
by
the idea that people in the world are gay; some are, but I don't think
it's a full 51%.)

Oh, and a note to Haggridd, who wrote, "As you can see, this [use of 
the
word "nonsense"] refers to ER's comments."

No, it doesn't. It clearly refers to my "warning", which I admit is
overblown and ridiculous - I think that the idea of warning the 
reading
public about the contents of a story is not only antithetical to the
process of reading, where a little suspense and glimpses of the
unexpected are a natural and requisite part of the interpritation of
narrative and appreciation of suspense. But the point of why I 
provided
the warning has clearly been missed, so I'll spell it out again - If
warnings are required about things that might offend or upset, then
those warnings would be required for GoF. They would be. Point out
something in that warning that would upset nobody, and I'll delete 
it -
but I don't think that anything in there would upset *nobody*. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------

(me)

On the use of the word "nonsense" - no, Haggridd was correct (and 
indeed read the whole post in the spirit in which it was intended, 
thank-you!), I was referring to my own light-hearted comments on 
your "warning", which I took to be light-hearted in content! But I 
didn't miss the serious point of your "warning" (honestly) - I was 
trying to say (perhaps badly) that in a practical sense, as far as 
warnings go, one has to stick with what one perceives to be the 
majority view, otherwise the whole process becomes too cumbersome - 
as you showed. 

We can of course disagree on what the majority are offended by (I 
guess a few hard facts would be useful, but I fear they will be hard 
to come by) but, if a majority votes (say) for warnings for 
heterosexual sex/kissing/cuddling or whatever, that's fine by me, 
I'll go with the flow. My vote would be against such warnings, but 
maybe I'm in the minority.

I note that you cite the over-13 readership - it's my opinion that a 
substantial portion of the readership are under-14. And I think they 
need warnings. Even if they don't heed them the first few times, the 
message will eventually sink in and they can avoid what they don't 
like. And them that are attracted to slash can head straight on in. 
Certainly we could do it the other way around, it's all slash unless 
it says otherwise, but it seems more work that way around. And please 
note that I'd expect a warning if there was heterosexual sex between 
the characters, unless they'd reached a suitable age (yeah, yeah, 
what's suitable I know - well, we'll have to wait for JK to make that 
clear in books 5,6 and 7).


Queer as John (QAJ) wrote

---------------------------------------------------------------
> What is this nonsense leading up to? My view is that one should warn
> about the things that are _likely_ to upset or offend the _majority_
> and, rightly or wrongly, quite a lot of people get upset by
> descriptions of homosexual sex. Thus IMHO it makes sense for slash
> stories to carry a prominent warning, but "normal" stories need not.

ER, but I am incredibly offended by your statement and use of 
language.
(It's also exceedingly rude to refer to somebody else's point 
as "nonsense".
You may not understand the point, but in that case, ask for 
clarification
rather than attacking with vitriol.)
------------------------------------------------------------------

(me) - you've missed the point totally. I explained "nonsense" above, 
it referred to my own comments. Now, I could decide to get offended 
at this "attack" on me, but I don't :) You just misread my words, 
maybe my fault, maybe yours, but nothing to go off the deep-end about 
and start throwing words like "vitriol" about. Just ask for 
clarification if in doubt.

Actually this does bring up an interesting point. If we were talking 
face-to-face these misunderstandings either wouldn't occur (body 
language, etc etc) or there'd be a raised eyebrow and a quick 
clarification. And quite probably nobody would notice a particular 
use of a word anyway (e.g. deviates). When it's being done via Email, 
people have time to brood and misread (and the author has no chance 
to clarify until the perceived hurt has been done). Email (or 
whatever you want to call a Yahoo group) does mean one has to be 
careful I guess, but I draw the line at having my lawyer and a 
linguist standing at my shoulder as I type. Perhaps one has to be a 
little more thick-skinned if one attends a Yahoo group, or at least 
ask for confirmation of what is seen as a slight or attack.


QAJ wrote (and Madeline picked up on) -

The reason I am offended is that the continuation of your argument 
(if not your argument itself) is that if slash is not normal, gay 
people are abnormal. Calling gay people "abnormal" or even "not 
normal" is personally offensive to me and, I suspect, to many others, 
gay and non-gay, in this community. I object to it in the strongest 
possible terms.

(me) - I dealt with "normal" and "abnormal" above in response to 
Saitaina. For emphasis, note that I quite deliberately did _not_ use 
the word abnormal. You introduced the word, not me.


QAJ wrote -

Think about what you are suggesting in another context: should 
AngieJ's excellent _Paradise_ series have "Warning: inter-racial 
couple" or "Warning: black character narrator" warnings? Of course 
not, we say. (Or, at least, I hope we say.) How about Ron/Hermione 
fics < should they contain "Warning: pureblood/mudblood couple" 
language? Again, of course not < that is ridiculous.

(me) I quite agree! But, I do know people who object to (or are at 
least offended by) descriptions of homosexual pairings but I don't 
know anybody who objects to inter-racial coupling. It's not to say 
that such bigots don't exist, but I can only speak from my own 
experience.


QAJ wrote -


I'll also reiterate my frustration with the fact that people (not 
just you, ER) appear through their language to be implying that all 
slash involves gay sex. It doesn't, any more than all fics with 
heterosexual pairings involves straight sex.


(me) you certainly have a point there (and somebody else made the 
same point, Saitaina was it). It's just that any gay behaviour 
is "not normal" (i.e. not what the majority do) and certainly not in 
the (current) spirit of the story, so I feel it should be pointed 
out. You obviously disagree. Fine by me. I think I read some of your 
FFs a while ago and as far as I remember they all carried prominent 
warnings. So perhaps you too agree at times on this? As far as I 
remember they were intelligent fics, I may even have reviewed to that 
effect. St Andrews University was it? Or was that where you got you 
degree? Did a "Prince of the Blood" make a cameo-appearance? ;)


QAJ wrote -

---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Anyway, I think that HP FanFics that deviate markedly from this norm
> should also carry a warning - "this ain't what you think it's going
> to be"!

I *really* hope that you are not referring to slash when you 
say "deviate".
Because I really dislike it when people refer to my orientation as
"deviant".
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(me) Certainly was! But not using it in the sense you have fastened 
on (I guess your blood was boiling by the time you'd waded this far 
through my post :). It was simply used in the sense of "diverge" 
or "differ". Your reading never occurred to me. Again, I think you're 
being a little over-sensitive here.


And, while I've got your attention, I think the (Tyke) phrase 
is "There's nowt _so_ queer as folk". Just though I'd mention that, 
it keeps grating on me, quite prepared to be proved wrong, it's your 
sig, do with it as you will :)


Heidy Tandy wrote -

Clearly, she cared about him [Cedric]. I was so hit out of the blue 
by it [Cedric's death] when I read that part that I didn't cry, 
myself, but I did when he asked Harry to bring his body back to his 
parents. I wonder, how could anyone (especially reading this after 
9/11, in a universe JKR never could have contemplated when she wrote 
this scene - when the whole issue of returning the smallest bit of 
one of the victims to his or her loved ones) not be touched by that?

(me) Maybe women are more emotional about these things than men or 
things go deeper with them? As I say, I can't get upset about the 
death of a bit-part character, but obviously some people do. You and 
JK at an absolute minimum. And re the bringing back of the body, it 
never occurred to me to think that that could move people to tears, 
bringing it back simply seems like the decent thing to do. Did other 
people get upset by Cedric's death? Did you feel you knew very much 
about him? Did the death of the old chap at the start of the book 
move you? Would you have been more upset if it had been Ron killed at 
the end of the book? And, yes, I would, but I certainly wouldn't cry, 
I'd just think (a) waste of a good character and (b) what a shame, 
poor old Ron, always getting the short-end of the stick. But Cedric-
who-he, nope, sorry. If it had been real life (9/11), then totally 
different matter, real people are dying and it's upsetting, though 
probably not a crying matter as far as I go.

In an aside, I was struck by the use of the phrase "kill the spare" - 
it rings bells from somewhere, but I really can't remember where. Was 
it Clockwork Orange or something like that?????


Heidy Tandy wrote -

In the book trade, fyi, books for 8 and 9 year olds are considered on 
the edge of YA books - not children's books

(me) Sheesh! Now I begin to understand some of our mutual confusion. 
8 and 9-year-olds are children as far as I'm concerned. As are 10,11 
and probably 12-year-olds. At 13 they're starting to grow up a bit.  
I guess the world has changed and passed me by - wouldn't be hard, I 
have no real experience of children (and don't want any). They're 
fine for an hour or so, but after that I like to know that either 
they or I are going home now.


Heidy Tandy wrote -

There are some wonderful stories that follow the spirit of JKR's 
novels. How about Dreamwalk Blue, where Tom Riddle gets homicidal 
while at school? It's totally canon based! It also contains both 
sexual activity among students and some violence - but it's about Tom 
Riddle in his last years at Hogwarts - could you actually walk into a 
story where the summary indicates that and be surprised that he's Not 
Such A Nice Guy? 


(me) Not quite sure what your point is here. If it's in the spirit of 
the original then all well and good. I'd probably read and enjoy it.


Various folks wrote or implied -

"Should PoU (and other stories) carry warnings for gay sex or adult 
situations"

(me) Well, yes and no - the story as far as I remember says that it 
(and ditto for other "epics") is post-Hogwarts and features adult 
situations. That's fine, that's all that's needed - adults have sex 
and adults have gay sex, so neither is going to upset me. I guess I 
might be a little peeved (ho-ho) if it turned out that every 
character in the fic was now gay or sado-masochistic or a child-
molester, since I'd argue that was not a plausible continuation of 
the original and thus not "in spirit". One couldn't gainsay the 
author, but one has to be sensible about what's likely.


For the record (finally) I'm not in the least bit offended by slash, 
I just don't think it's in the spirit of the original and so I like 
to see it trailed explicitly ('gay') or implicitly ('adult'). If 
there is FanFic for some homosexually-centred story (I think Heidy 
Tandy mentioned "Less than Zero") then I would like to see warnings 
for heterosexual behaviour, since this is not (I assume) what the 
reader would expect. Keep it in the spirit of the original story 
ideally - if not, then at least warn people.

BTW, what's a LOLLIPOP?


ER, who doesn't understand where people find the time to post so 
prolifically. This little oeuvre has just about killed me and is only 
possible since I recharged the batteries with a good long walk 
earlier. And now I need another one.