[HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it

[Queer as John]

ER <ression at hotmail.com> said:

> (me) Well, we're fencing with words here. I used "normal"
> not "norm", and they do (I think) have subtly different meanings.
> Normal means (according to my dictionary) "usual" or "typical", and I
> contend that as far as the human race as a whole goes homosexuality
> is neither usual nor typical. A sizeable minority no doubt, but not a
> majority and so not typical.

See, "typical" and "usual" are language which is not loaded. This is good
language to use. Talking about "normal" orientation *is* loaded, because it
comes with the inherent implication that what is "normal" is "good" and
"desirable". I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

> And before anybody tells me, I used the word "norm" further on, but
> there I was referring to that which I'd just defined in the previous
> paragraph. Not a mention of homosexuality, I was trying to establish
> what I consider the spirit of the stories and arguing that deviation
> from this (used the word before and I'm using it again, in the sense
> of diverge) merits a warning.

> (me) I was trying to suggest a means for generating the least amount
> of work. If the majority would like to be warned about slash rather
> than het, then that to me is the simplest way to go. I'm tall but the
> airlines don't make (cattle-class) seats with extra legroom just for
> me, they go for the majority market. I grin and bear it. Just.

Well, I *refuse* to grin and bear it when the majority (or the Moral
Majority, who aren't) wants to deny me the right to the benefits to
marriage, the right to not be fired or otherwise discriminated against at
work based on my sexual orientation, and so on and so forth. (And for the
record, I SO feel your pain on the extra legroom thing. That's why I fly
American as much as I can, because they just added three extra inches to
their coach seats. Not comfy-comfy, but at least my knees don't touch the
seat in front any more! :D)

> On the use of the word "nonsense"  I was referring to my own light-hearted
> comments on your "warning", which I took to be light-hearted in content!

At this point I'll just say that it's *extremely* difficult to pick up
sarcasm, humor, and other tone-of-voice and body language-related notes from
plain text. It's even more difficult when we consider that there are
multiple cultural expectations at work here with regard to things being
taken jocularly or seriously. Please, if you are going to try to inject
humor, make it a bit clearer for those who come from different cultures from
yourself. Use an emoticon (:D, :P) or say *grins* or *winks* or (just
kidding, folks), or use words to make it clear.

> We can of course disagree on what the majority are offended by (I
> guess a few hard facts would be useful, but I fear they will be hard
> to come by) but, if a majority votes (say) for warnings for
> heterosexual sex/kissing/cuddling or whatever, that's fine by me,
> I'll go with the flow. My vote would be against such warnings, but
> maybe I'm in the minority.

I'm curious ‹ how do you go about finding that majority, and that vote? And
who gets to vote? What is the electorate here? Members of a fanfiction site?
Anyone who wanders along and clicks? Is the voting tied to IP address or
not?

> I note that you cite the over-13 readership - it's my opinion that a
> substantial portion of the readership are under-14. And I think they
> need warnings. 

No, they need responsible parents who monitor their internet usage. See my
reply to Diana's post.

> If we were talking face-to-face these misunderstandings either wouldn't occur
> (body language, etc etc) or there'd be a raised eyebrow and a quick
> clarification. And quite probably nobody would notice a particular use of a
> word anyway (e.g. deviates).

Yes to the first sentence, no to the second. I would have picked you up on
the words "normal", "deviate", "majority" and so on, and you'd have
clarified 

> When it's being done via Email,
> people have time to brood and misread (and the author has no chance
> to clarify until the perceived hurt has been done). Email (or
> whatever you want to call a Yahoo group) does mean one has to be
> careful I guess, but I draw the line at having my lawyer and a
> linguist standing at my shoulder as I type. Perhaps one has to be a
> little more thick-skinned if one attends a Yahoo group, or at least
> ask for confirmation of what is seen as a slight or attack.

Or, alternatively, as our admin files suggest, people could be more
selective with their use of overly-loaded language.
 
> I dealt with "normal" and "abnormal" above in response to Saitaina. For
> emphasis, note that I quite deliberately did _not_ use the word abnormal. You
> introduced the word, not me.

I'm sorry, but I consider the word "abnormal" to be the direct opposite of
"normal". Checking with my Latin dictionary and Thesaurus, the latter lists
it as an antonym.

> I do know people who object to (or are at least offended by) descriptions of
> homosexual pairings but I don't know anybody who objects to inter-racial
> coupling. It's not to say that such bigots don't exist, but I can only speak
> from my own experience.

Right, it's here that I will ask for clarification. Your words make me think
that you believe that someone who objects to inter-racial coupling is a
bigot, but someone who objects to descriptions of homosexual pairings is
not. If that is what you meant, that is an UNBELIEVABLE double-standard. I
refuse to pander to such a double standard. Hate is hate. Bigotry is
bigotry. 

> It's just that any gay behaviour is "not normal" (i.e. not what the majority
> do) and certainly not in the (current) spirit of the story, so I feel it
> should be pointed out.

Once again, it would be very helpful if you refrained from using "normal"
rhetoric. Perhaps, instead, "gay people are not in the majority"? But then,
unfortunately, you would lose your justification for things not being in the
spirit of the story. Because society *likes* minorities, and frowns on
people who *don't like* minorities. And action that people take to forcibly
separate minorities and their interests from the majority is called
"discrimination" or, when applied to people of different ethnic backgrounds,
"racism". And, in society, that too is frowned upon.

> You obviously disagree. Fine by me. I think I read some of your
> FFs a while ago and as far as I remember they all carried prominent
> warnings. So perhaps you too agree at times on this?

I have at no point argued that ratings and pairings should not be displayed
prominently. Indeed, my "Not Just a River in Egypt" is rated R and has very
prominent warnings about sex and language: "Not Just A River In Egypt is
written for an adult audience. The adult characters use frequent explicit
language to refer to sexual situations throughout."

I *don't* feel that fics should be warned simply because they contain gay
material. Pairings, yes. But "random gay people in the background", or "male
character occasionally has thoughts about other men"? No.

> (me) Certainly was! But not using it in the sense you have fastened
> on (I guess your blood was boiling by the time you'd waded this far
> through my post :). It was simply used in the sense of "diverge"
> or "differ". Your reading never occurred to me. Again, I think you're
> being a little over-sensitive here.

One is often accused of being oversensitive when objecting to language with
loaded implications like "deviate". Less than fifty years ago, 'treatment'
for 'deviates' like homosexuals included electro-shock therapy. I'm sure you
can understand why the loaded implications attached to your words made me
object to them.

> And, while I've got your attention, I think the (Tyke) phrase
> is "There's nowt _so_ queer as folk". Just though I'd mention that,
> it keeps grating on me, quite prepared to be proved wrong, it's your
> sig, do with it as you will :)

*grins* D'you know, that's why my inner Tyke told me too, but the Oxford
Dictionary of Quotations proved me wrong.

Moving on to clio's points, under a new subject...

--John
______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
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