[HPFGU-OTChatter] Fanfics, ratings & heated responses (LONG)

[heiditandy]

Author's Note: I started writing this around 1pm yesterday, then got
called away from the computer for birthday celebrations (mine!) and now,
at 6am, it's my first chance to finish it up, so I know I will have
missed some posts and I know that I'm replying to things that might have
been clarified/explained in subsequent posts, so please, bear with me.
And Acire, thanks for the clarification - it really did make it much
clearer. 

Diana, was it you who called me an activist? I'm not, really. I'm a
working mom, and I don't have time, or, to be honest, the inclination,
for things like petition drives, fundraising or marches. To call me an
activist, simply because I personally believe that the same rules should
apply across the board to everyone, denigrates those who are truly
active in bringing about changes that they feel committed to.  All I do
is vote. 

Diana posted:
> John, and then later Heidi responded that they felt ER was 
> expressing possibly homophobic opinions about fanfic labelling.  
Diana, I am afraid you've not read my posts clearly. I actually hadn't
accused ER of homophobia - whether ER is or isn't is irrelevant to the
discussion, from my perspective, because the question people are
discussing here is, simply, what sort of warnings should be on fanfics
and why?

> 
> Haggrid then chimed in that she could see what ER was trying to say, 
> even though her word choice may have been poor.

(Um, Diana? Haggridd's a guy - just an FYI)

> First off, I would like to point out that not wanting to read about 
> same-sex couples having sex does not make a person a homophobe.  

You're absolutely right - it doesn't. There are a lot of people who
don't enjoy reading about sexual activity, regardless of the gender of
the participants, and I respect that perspective. I have a number of
friends who share it, and to be honest, I'm not a fan of graphic stories
myself.

What I've been trying to focus on, in my posts, is that there is a
difference between the following four things (yes, I know that they are
not necessarily mutually exclusive, but let's pretend for the sake of
this argument that they are):
1. Gay characters who are engaged in no romantic or sexual behaviour in
the context of a story
2. Gay characters who are engaged in romantic behaviour in the context
of a story, but where sex is entirely absent, and/or entirely offpage.
3. Gay characters who are engaged in romantic behaviour *and* sexual
behaviour on a level with snogging, handholding, "I Love You"'s and
other things that you would see heterosexual characters engaged in in
your average Disney film. 
4. Gay characters who engage in sexual behaviour above the level of that
described in "level three".

Diana, what I am trying to clarify is what you consider "having sex" -
is it handholding? Kissing? Petting? Or just intercourse? Personally, I
do consider both petting and intercourse within the realm of "having
sex" or "sexual activity" but I don't consider snogging to reach that
level. 

If you don't want to read level four in my chart above, fine - I agree
that fics should contain an appropriate rating if such behaviour is
engaged in, regardless of whether the participants are gay or straight.
If you have issues with reading level three, then you should pay close
attention to the summary of a fic and avoid those where the summary
seems to contain that type of behaviour.

If you have problems with levels 1 and 2, then no amount of rating or
summarizing information is going to be of help 100% of the time for you,
because not all authors are willing to spoil things in the narrative
with the summary. And I don't see how even the perfect informational
system you describe (which actually contains many elements of the sort
that I said, a few days ago, we are developing for FictionAlley and
expect to release this spring (post 13166) would physically be able to
cover or list all the pairings in some of the novel length fics on FA. I
mean, we're talking about fics in the range of 500 pages in MS word,
covering years, if not decades, and incorporating original characters as
well. There will still be glitches and misses and things that are not
incorporated with precision. 

Diana also wrote:
> Regardless of what I choose to read, I should be able to have a 
> rough idea of what to expect if choosing to read a work of amateur 
> fiction about characters I've already got my mind set about.  I've 
> read all four books and decided for myself what sexual orientation 
> some the characters are and who they're attracted to, and I don't 
> welcome someone barging into my vision and telling me I've got it 
> all wrong. Or, worse, thrusting images into my mind of scenes I 
> definitely don't want to be part of my Harry Potter experience. 

Then don't read fanfic. Who is forcing you to? (I won't even get into
the issue of "amateur" and how that is so derogatory to the works
written by professional authors.)  But, as I think Barb said earlier, if
you are so convinced about everything in the books, why are you on a
discussion list about HP? 

Btw, your statement makes me wonder if you read all 4 books at once, and
if you're really spent that much time pondering Newt Scamander and
Eloise Midgen and what canon you're looking to in making determinations
about them, but that's because I'm always curious about how people make
determinations about various things in canon, and what they heck they're
going to do when JKR counters those determinations in later books. But I
can say that as I read each book separately and months, if not years,
apart, as I waited for each to be released, and she's confounded my
expectations every time. 

> Would you enjoy browsing through a book 
> store if you had to look through a list of synopses of all the books 
> in there, all mixed up to boot?  After you'd looked through a few 
> pages of synopses with books on gardening, how to raise a troubled 
> kid, the art of film noir, chinese fan-making techniques, a bio of a 
> 1950s movie star, collecting plates, the history of the lobster, 
> understanding calculus, the latest romance novel, the 
> repacked best- selling sci-fi epic, how to grow mushrooms and 
> so on you'd be pretty 
> frustrated that it wasn't easier to get to exactly what you wanted 
> to read and how to avoid what you were not interested in.

Yes but...

If I wanted to read only fiction, I'd certainly not mind reading a list
of titles and summaries of only fictive works. I've been doing that on
Amazon for about 8 years now, and it's a great way to find new things.
But if you don't like that approach, go and only read based on
recommendations - it's a very sensible way to pick and choose what you
might like. 
 
> For this reason, massive fanfic sites 
> that have every single story sorted by all pairings contained within 
> and then by how graphic the story as far as sex and violence will 
> probably never actually exist.  

Right, because you've thrown the word "all" in there. And as I said
above, we're dealing with, in the case of FA, story arcs that are
hundreds of pages long, where relationships come, go, grow and develop.
And what would the phrase Linda Potter/Joey Malfoy mean to you anyway,
without a summary? But if you look for "primary" or "integral" or "focus
of the story", then, as I said a few days ago, FA will have that this
spring. 

> Well, start by making the 
> pairings and ratings clear BEFORE a synopsis is given.  Links to a 
> synopsis can be anchored on the same page, just further down.  Why 
> do I suggest this?  Because I visited the fictionalley website just 
> a few days ago after all the heated discussion on this list.  While 
> casually browsing the synopses, and still unfamiliar with the layout 
> and the placement of warnings and pairings, I read some synopses 
> [basiclly blurbs to try to get the browser to read the story] and 
> winced at the unwanted images that sprang to mind when I read a few 
> of them.  I will spare others the same fate by not quoting a couple 
> I read there. 
> 
Well, I hope that you at least have the courtesy to let the site admins
(aka me or Barb) know if you found anything R-rated on the sumamry page
- there shouldn't be any! We try to make sure that there are none, but
as we're pushing 17,000 stories and chapters right now, there might be a
few things that missed our eye. All the summaries should be PG-13 rated
or less, as it says in the ToU, and anything otherwise should be
reported to the admins. If you don't want to report things to us, then
we can't be expected to know what troubles you, in particular. However,
we're very responsive to user requests and comments, when we actually
are notified about them. 

ER wrote, on a related issue:
> In an ideal world yes, but it ain't going to happen and we shouldn't 
> (where practical) subject the child to the failings of the parent 
> when we can so easily (from my POV) avoid it.

And Diana also posted:

Back to Diana:
> As for the ratings for sexual and violent content, we are [almost] 
> all adults on this list and can handle most things, even if the 
> pairings or content isn't our usual preference, but children, who 
> can and do access fanfic sites on the internet can't discern those 
> differences as well and might think they can handle more than they 
> really can or just don't know what the ratings mean.  
> Clear, accurate, ratings would help solve this problem a great deal, 
> assuming children didn't seek out the most explicitly rated stories 
> just because of the "need to see what that stuff is about" factor.

Yes, ER, you're absolutely right - we can, on FA, have children under 17
avoid accidentally stumbling across an R-rated fic. We've had something
in place for *months* that prevents kids under 17 from reading anything
rated R unless they state that their parents would approve. In other
words, if you're under 17 and your parents would disaprove, you have to
*lie* to read the R-rated fics. We have also sent information about FA
to sites like NetNanny and SurfWatch, telling them that the site is
rated PG-13.  There is nothing else we could do for under a few thousand
dollars (which we do NOT have) to prevent under-17s from accessing the
site. We prohibit kids under 13 from registering (which is required to
participate in the Park and review fics as a registered user. Prohibit.
They have to, again, lie, and if we find out about it, they are banned.
Yes, they can read fics, but, again, not the R-rated ones. 

I am a parent, and I certainly plan to block a selection of specific
websites from my computer when my son is old enough to get on the
computer himself and read what is there. Schools, at this point, are
generally required to block sites that are not approved, or which show
up in things like NetNanny, and there is no excuse for a parent who
pleads concern about what their child sees online to not obtain a
program like NetNanny or SurfWatch (which, btw, I think overblock in a
considerable way, but if you're that concerned about what your child
sees on the computer, then you should get it).

Diana, again: 
> My son is nine and he does not know what the term slash when applied 
> to fiction means.  I have not had the opportunity or desire to 
> explain it just yet.  

I didn't know what it meant when I was 28. 

> He does know about heterosexual sex and 
> homosexuality, but not every explicit detail - there's no need for 
> that until he needs more information and asks for it, then I'll 
> answer his questions.  He does not need to find a fanfic site and 
> read all these synopses.  

What explicit synopsis? Again, I ask you to let me know, offlist, what
you consider explicit synopsises. 

Oh, and FA has a glossary, linked to from the Newbies' Guide (on the
front page and other pages inside) and the FAQ, which explains a large
number of definitions, including slash. Useful tool, that.

> 
> As far as being an adult and stumbling across fanfiction I have no 
> interest in, I am frustrated in what the fanfic sites lack - and 
> that is comprehensive classification on the most basic level.  I 
> mean basic sorting, then further sorting all the way down to fine 
> tuned sorting of what the stories main pairings and sex/violence 
> content really are.  If I don't want to read any slash pairings, but 
> want an R-rated Harry/Hermione as grown-ups story, then I sould be 
> able to find it easily by looking under "het or non-
> slash", "Harry/Hermione", then "R-rated for sex and violence" or if 
> I want to read chaste slash Minevera/Sprout pairings, then I should 
> be able to look under "slash", "Minerva/Sprout", then "G rated, no 
> sex, no violence" and then read through the synopses to pick a 
> story.  No matter my preference, I could find what I wanted and 
> avoid what I didn't want with ease.  Many more fanfics would be read 
> with this sort of system.  

Well, we're not going to have a demarcation page where you can select
slash, gen or het, simply because there are far too many fics which
cover more than one category, but if you want to limit in and limit out
SHIPs and violence levels, that will, as I said earlier this week
(actually, I may not have mentioned the violence thing then but...) will
be available on FA later this spring. 

> Do I personally think all the HP characters are "good little 
> heterosexuals", which is an attitude John and Heidi seem to be 
> ascribing to anyone who isn't jumping with joy over all those slash 
> fiction choices we're missing out on reading?  

I'm sorry, where on earth did I say that? Please, point me to a post and
the lines I used which make you believe that I ever said that. For the
record, I didn't. 

> I can't 
> force my own images onto others and I expect them to not do that to 
> me. 
> The fact I 
> don't want to read those stories and can't see the appeal in them 
> doesn't mean I'm recommending, let alone commanding, everyone else 
> to stop reading them.  
Well, yes you can because most authors are more gracious than that. But
I don't really understand what you're looking for here. You say you want
to have summaries, but the summaries put such nefarious images into your
mind that you cannot erase, even before you've read the fic. How can you
know what's in a fic sans summary, and how can a summary that is so
comprehensive not spoil the plot and development of the fic itself? 

ER wrote:

> >> I note that you cite the over-13 readership - it's my opinion that
> a
> >> substantial portion of the readership are under-14. And I think
> they
> >> need warnings.
> 

And your opinion comes from *what*, exactly? I run the site, I *know*
our demographics, and the fact that a large number of the hits to FA
come from college .edu ISPs. Look on FA's birthday list on any given day
- look at the ages. Now, obviously, under-13-year-olds cannot register
for FA at all, so they won't factor in on that list, but given that
prohibition against participation, against submitting fics, against
having an account on the site - what basis do you have for formulating
such an opnion? We've specifically not worked with sites like MuggleNet
in plugging FA, we don't do banner exchanges with the sites that cater
to the under-14 crowd and we don't plug ourselves over on the official
site, even though we could. Anyhow, the kids who were the 14 year olds
in the fandom 2 years ago are turning 16 this year (Hi, Maddy!) and are
much more mature, obviously, for it. 

If you have information - actual information - about a plethora of kids
under 13 on FA, please do let me know. We won't block them but we would
be cognizant of it. 

John wrote:
> >I *don't* feel that fics should be warned simply because they 
> contain gay
> >material. Pairings, yes. But "random gay people in the background", 
> or "male
> >character occasionally has thoughts about other men"? No.
> 
And ER replied:
> Agreed, if it is adult fic, but not if it is young fic. I guess we 
> just must disagree here.
What is the difference? I am asking because I've never heard the term
"young fic" before. Is that something written by a teenaged author?
Something with a G rating? Something that isn't NC-17? Please, clarify.
Because if you think that random gay people in the background of a PG
rated fic is something kids shouldn't be exposed to, then I wonder if
you're part of the group that's trying to ban Heather Has Two Mommies or
Daddy's Roommate in elementary schools. Or exactly what your problem is
with Will & Grace. 

In a later post, ER wrote (in response to John, I think)
> > Yes, that's right. Harry Potter, beating out "Daddy's Roommate"
> and "Heather
> > Has Two Mommies", numbers 2 and 11 of the 1990-2000 Most Frequently 
> > Challenged Books List.
> > 
> 
> Ballot-stuffing! How many votes are we talking about here? Hundreds, 
> thousands, millions?

Well, why don't you come to Nimbus - 2003 (http://www.hp2003.org) and
listen to Judith Krug, director of the American Library Association's
section that handles book banning issues, as the Friday luncheon keynote
speaker? She is going to address this, and it's already explained
extensively on the ALA.org website. 

(btw, ER, I ask you this as a favour - please don't put my name in
quotation marks - it's my real name (at least since 1996) and I am quite
googleable.)

Meira wrote:
> ME:
> Didn't JKR say in one of her interviews that she didn't write stuff 
> based on what would upset people and what wouldn't?
> 
ER replied:
> That's a bit mean of her, if we're talking about the younger readers?
Why is it mean? I *quoted* this yesterday (ER, did you even read my
post?) where she said, plain as day, that she writes for herself, and
does nto think that the books are appropriate for
under-8-or-9-year-olds. Why is this a bad thing? It sounds like you're
saying that things should be written for the lowest-level audience. Are
you?

Laura Ingalls Huntley said, about my reference to Rebecca's Darkness &
Light trilogy:
>>>As for the question of student-teacher relationships
(or, in a more general sense, sexual/romantic 
relationships between children and adults) -- I, for
one, think adults who have sex with children are evil. <<< 

I agree with you completely but...
Rebecca's fic involves a student who transfers to Hogwarts in her 6th
year, when she's already 17, and whose relationship with Snape builds
into a friendship and later a romance over, IIRC, a four year period.
She isn't his student when the romance begins, and she's certainly not a
child, but she is his apprentice and theoretically, there could be a
power imbalance there. There actually isn't, in the context. It's all
about the context. I personally think the idea of dating or marrying
someone who's 17 years older - or younger - be a bit icky, but I don't
see anything immoral about it when the younger party is well into
his/her 20s. My husband and I are 5 years apart - had we met and dated
when I was 13 and he 18, it would've been beyond icky, IMHO, but we met
10 years later - and there's no imbalance, and, IMHO, nothing wrong with
it. 

Then again, while I think that people should avoid premarital sex, at
least until adulthood, I also can't personally ascribe the term "evil"
to a 19 year old sophmore in college dating a 17 year old freshman. I
don't think you are either, Laura - I think you're saying that there has
to be more of an age and power imbalance there. 

Someone commented about my comment on Less Than Zero. Guys, it's not a
fanfic. It's a novel - Bret Easton Ellis, I think 1986? 1987? He wrote
it when he was 19 and was still in college (Bennington?) when it was
published to wide acclaim. 

And Vulgarweed - you're right about the issue of visual vs. text based
media being censored. Actually, given the Supreme Court ruling from last
April, anything text-based about kids of any age engaging in sexual
activity seems to be legal in the US. Doesn't mean I approve of it,
personally, but it's good that it's legal because if the decision that
the court struck down had remained law, Romeo & Juliet, American Beauty
and Traffic all could've been banned, just like The Tin Drum was in a
town in, IIRC, Ohio a few years back. Of couse, just because something
is allowed under the law doesn't mean it has to be available to everyone
of every age - that's one of the reasons FA doesn't have NC17 fics. 

LilaHP asks for sites that don't include slash. Well, as you'll find
slash on DiagonAlley, FictionAlley, SugarQuill, FFN, Eliza's HP Fanfic
Site and (I think, because they host After The End, GryffindorTower as
well) I really don't think you'll find a comprehensive site in this
fandom that has no fics that contain gay characters. And I don't say
this to be mean or cruel or denigrate your noninterest in reading fics
that contain gay or bi characters. It's just, well, the truth. There
might be smaller sites out there which have no fics that have gay
characters, but as Pumpkin Pie hosts Trouble in Paradise and PoU, you
can't go *there*. Perhaps the Tom/Ginny sites? Too many of the
Lily/James fics have Remus/Sirius in the background, so that won't do.
Hmmm. Anyone have any recommendations for her?

Whew. Hope I covered everything, but I'm sure I missed a few here &
there...

Heidi, recovering