Slash and homosexuality

[Queer as John]

Meira wrote:

> There's a difference between slash and sex, it's not the same (As so many
> people pointed out around here).

*snip*
 
> Some people might not like HP slashed or NC-17-ed. There's nothing wrong
> with that either. That does *not* make them homophobes, that simply means
> that gay characters do not fit into their own image of the Potterverse as
> they see it. Even though gay people *do* exist in the real world.

But the very point is that this dislike IS homophobia, because it's not
rational. Not once has anyone put forward a reason other than "it doesn't
fit my image". It's like responding "because" to the question "why?".

If one's image of the HPverse is one in which gay people don't exist -- and
can't exist without "ruining" it -- then one must be prepared to receive
charges of homophobia.

> Last (for now) - Homosexual-related issues (and please accept that I'm not
> trying to insult anyone here, I just use the word that means percisely that.
> 'Homo' means 'same', and sexual, well, you know what *that* means *g*):

Actually, "homo" means man. Which excludes lesbians. And, going back to the
Grecolatinate roots, could be argued to include anyone who loves men. But I
digress, and will assume that whenever you say "homosexual" you mean "same
sex attracted".

> I would very much love to learn more about how one person turns out to be
> gay, whether it's because he decided to be gay, or because of genetics. I
> assumed that scientists were still arguing over this subject.

Okay, this'll be long.

There is an excellent book by Eric Marcus called _Is_It_a_Choice?_ which I
highly recommend as an introduction.

Online, PFLAG (Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) says:

"No one knows exactly how sexual orientation and gender identity determined.
However, experts agree that it is a complicated matter of genetics, biology,
psychological and social factors.  For most people, sexual orientation and
gender identity are shaped at any early age. While research has not
determined a cause, homosexuality and gender variance are not the result of
any one factor like parenting or past experiences. It is never anyone's
"fault" if they or their loved one grows up to be gay, lesbian, bisexual or
transgender. If you are asking yourself why you or your loved one is GLBT,
consider asking yourself another question: Why ask why? Does your response
to a GLBT person depend on knowing why they are GLBT? Regardless of cause,
GLBT people deserve equal rights and to be treated fairly."

Genes certainly come into it -- there's a study where identical twins are
two times more likely to both be gay than other siblings -- but may not be
the be-all and end-all. Nevertheless, I've yet to hear of a study not funded
by some gay-hating Christian institute which claims that it's a choice or a
decision.

There is some question about whether being gay is actually genetic or if
it's determined in the womb. It may be a combination of both. Like Barb, I
don't care if it's genetic or fixed before birth. I know that I'm gay. I am
attracted to men, and not attracted to women. I know that I didn't make a
*choice* or a *decision* to be gay. It's not a "preference" in the same way
that I prefer sausage to bacon, because I can explain why: the taste of the
spices in the sausage taste better to me than bacon. I don't feel the same
way about being attracted to men and not women.

> I think that hating others just because they are a bit different is stupid,
> but it's every person's right.

I disagree. I believe that hate is not a right and that people should fight
it wherever it occurs. Because even if the person who hates isn't violent,
it's that atmosphere which leads to violence.

> Those who prefer mustard have all the right to hate the ketchup-lovers, but
> what they can't do is force the ketchup-lovers to start consuming mustard
> instead of ketchup, or throw rotten tomatoes at them.

See above for the food analogy :D

*grin* Oh, and mushrooms on pizza? That's not only immoral but repulsive and
disgusting! *laughs*

> Questions:
> 
> John: "I know, that's something of a strawman, but it's a relevant one."
> 
> [1] What's a "strawman"?

A strawman is a rhetorical term. Think of it as a boxer making a sack full
of straw in order to punch it. We make strawmen to knock down with our
arguments. One common criticism of strawmen is that it is easy for them to
become unrepresentative of what's actually said. This may not be because of
any disingenuity on the part of the writer, but rather implications which he
is referring to from the other writers' points.

>> Barb wrote: "I firmly believe that scientists who have determined there is a
>> genetic and/or biological basis to our orientations are correct,
>> based in part on a great deal of anecdotal testimony available
>> concerning the unchangeable nature of orientation (in addition to
>> the more scientific studies).  I also believe, however, that those
>> who claim orientation should not be protected under hate-crimes laws
>> because they call it a "choice" should see the hypocrisy in their
>> stand, when many of them are direct beneficiaries of their choice of
>> religion being protected under law."
 
> Meira wrote: This is something that I'm not sure I understand entirely.
> (hehe... y'see? I learned something... try and understand what someone says
> *before* replying on it, much trouble can be avoided this way. ^-^)

What I believe Barb was saying is that there are two basic arguments about
how same sex attraction is determined: choice or not-choice (genetic). I
think that people like Barb and I are so used to familiarity with these
arguments that we sometimes forget to explain the logic behind them fully!
Let me try.

Many people use the choice argument to argue that, since it's "only a
choice", gay people shouldn't be entitled to the same benefits and civil
rights as other people. For example, they argue that same-gender couples
could "choose" to be attracted to -- and married -- to the opposite gender,
but they "choose" not to, so they don't deserve the same legal marriage
rights.

Does that help?

> [2] Yes it is *g*. But please take note that in Israel, there are three
> official languages: Hebrew, Arabic and English.

*grins* Well, seeing as my Ivrit is limited to "hamishpara, shel arutz
shalosh" (tomorrow[?], on channel three) "boker tov" (good morning) and
other pleasantries, and for some reason "g'dul shdaim" (large bosoms), and
my Arabic is similarly limited, I guessed.

> John: "I'm happy to provide links" (about homosexuality and genes)
> 
> [3] I'd love that, thanks.

Let me know if you want more than the PFLAG stuff above.

> My own, personal perspective on things is that I try to decide who's
> opinions matter to me and whose don't. I found that that makes me far less
> prone to being insulted and upset.

Oh, I see. Well, the opinions of almost everybody on HPFGU-OTChatter matter
to me. As I said to someone the other day, to me, OTChatter is the place
where I chat with like-minded people about non-HP things. It has been ever
since I created it all those many moons ago. The very first place I came out
of the closet was in an HPFGU chat.

I generally count OTChatter as an open-minded, dare I say 'liberal' sort of
place. I tend to think that the people who are off crusading against gay
rights are also crusading against Harry Potter, and so not that likely to be
here! I also tend to think that HP fans, given the emphasis on slavery and
racism in HP, are less likely to hold homophobic opinions. In short, I
empathise with the people on this list. They're "people like me".

I was stunned and surprised by the words that people used to express
themselves, because I didn't think that "people like us" held homophobic
opinions. That, I think, is why this whole thread has been so...odd, for
lack of a better word. Homophobia isn't supposed to *happen* here.

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________