Quick Brit Speak Question: 2:1 in his MA

[dungrollin]

Okay for the third time today... hoping Yahoo doesn't eat the post 
again...

> > Dungrollin wrote:
> > 
> > (Dung as in Mundungus as in tobacco, rollin as in too cheap to 
> > buy pre-fab fags, and Dungrollin as in... oh. <Eyes overflowing 
> > ashtray> It appears that that attempt to give up was 
> > unsuccessful.)
> 
> 
> Carol dares to respond:
> Ah. Britspeak again. I thought, erm, do I dare say this--that it 
> had to do with rolling dung of the variety produced by the dung 
> beetle. You're an entomologist, aren't you, or did I dream that up?

Dungrollin:
No, you didn't dream it, I work on dung beetles. Lucky coincidence, 
eh?

> We Americans don't use "dung" to mean tobacco (and "fag" is an
> impolite term for homosexual).

Brits don't use "dung" to mean tobacco either, I was being ...
inventive.  "Fag" on the other hand has (as I have discovered from 
my delightful Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English - 1400 
pages of terrific fun) a number of meanings, all of which I was 
previously aware of, but didn't know about the dates, so in case 
you're interested:


Fag, n.

In /stand a good fag/, not to become easily tired: late C.18-19: 
coll. (Grose, 3rd ed.) Hence, /fag/, anything that causes weariness; 
toil: coll.:-1780. hence, from ca. 1880, a wearisome thing; a bore.  
Possibly this phrase + /fag/, hard work, drudgery, weariness 
(1780:OED), being a schoolboys' perversion of /fatigue/ (W.), led to:

-2. A boy doing menial work for one in a higher form: schoolboys' 
s.:-1785, >, by 1850, gen. coll. Grose, 1st ed.; Thackeray (of a 
young drudge in a painters' studio). Prob. ex /fag/, v., 1, but, 
despite the dates, perhaps ex /fag/, v., 2.

-3. Eatables: Christ's Hospital (School), from ca. 1800. Leigh Hunt, 
in his autobiography, 'The learned derived the word from the 
Greek /phago/.' 

-4. An inferior cigarette, from ca. 1887; by late 1890s, in RN 
(Goodenough, 1901) and army (J. Milne, 1902), any cigarette, and 
this usage >, by ca. 1915, gen. Abbr. /fag-end/ and ?orig. 
army. 'Cuthbert Bede', 1853, speaks of 'the fag-ends of cigars' 
(SOD).

-5. A lawyer's clerk: Aus. joc.: C.20. B., 1942, ex sense 2.

-6. A male homosexual, esp. if a pathic: adopted, ca. 1960, ex US; 
Powis notes, 1977, 'now not uncommon in West London'. Very prob. ex 
sense 2, but poss. influenced by, a shortening of, /faggot/, n., 4.


So there you go.  I meant number 4, cigarette.  "Fag" is not an 
intrinsically offensive word in UK English. I wouldn't say that 
either meaning is more common, but it's never confusing because of 
the context. I didn't realise that meaning number 6 was so recent - 
I was blissfully unaware of it throughout my childhood, but I 
distinctly remember being taught that fag=cigarette (and that 
lucifer=match) at school when I was 5. We were singing WW1 songs, 
for some reason.


> Mencken was right about two countries separated by a common 
> language (can't remember the exact quote).

Dungrollin:
Shaw, wasn't it? (Could be wrong, can't remember either.)
 
> Carol, hoping she hasn't offended anybody

Dungrollin
Hopes she didn't offend anybody either, and that if she did they now 
realise that she meant no harm (except to her own lungs, which is 
her choice.) And apologies to those who have no interest in 
etymology.