[HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?

[Janette]

>
> Goddlefrood:
>
> I suggest that depends on what traditions you refer to.
> Here's a few:
>
> (i) Father Christmas / Santa Claus (FC) - Most usually
> traced to Saint Nicholas of Turkey. He's also the patron
> saint of pawnbrokers.
>
> (iv) Eight reindeers - Probably due to Odin's horse having
> had 8 legs. The Norse religion could probably be lumped in
> in the pagan category, but would usually be described as
> a pantheistic religion, not completely unlike modern Hinduism.


montims:

lots snipped, and not wanting to cite long quotes as I did in a previous
posting (although I could if requested), but just for the purposes of
debate:

the figure now seen as Father Christmas has many sources; as you said he is
most often connected to St Nicholas for his generosity, although that's
really the only similarity.  It really was a convenient way to explain the
fact that so many cultures had a deep connection with the concept, even when
they had never actually heard of St Nicholas of Myra.  In northern Europe,
shoes and stockings were left out for Odin, and the process of
christianisation put St Nick in Odin's place.

But it is really all an amalgam, and Santa Claus, Father Christmas and St
Nick have different derivations that are now all absorbed into the one
fantasy figure.  Father Christmas, in England, has traditionally represented
the spirit of good cheer.  He is very much Herne and the Green Man, and it
has been said that by adopting Santa Claus, the Brits have subconsciously
(as it is an ancient archetype) taken the horns of Herne and put them on the
reindeer instead.

Like Susan, I respect all peoples' religious beliefs, but I hate seeing
history rewritten to eradicate the contributions of the Other.  We all know
that history is written by the victors - once a tribe or culture is
eradicated, it is left to archeologists to go through midden pits and
interpret their findings.  But we are intelligent people, and if you
(generic you) find deep spiritual meaning in the story of Christmas, then
you can surely do so without denying the non-christian elements which were
absorbed into the way it is celebrated today?  I make no mention of the
actual gospel stories, as they are outwith this discussion.

And by the way, some people have questioned the word "pagan".  This is quite
simply a religion or a belief "outside the
Abrahamic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion>
monotheistic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism> group of
Judaism<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism>,
Christianity <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity>, and
Islam<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam>," and
is the term used by christians since christianity became the state religion.
 (Quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan for simplicity.)  In
Goddlefrood's quote above, he talks about the Norse religion being "lumped
in the pagan category", but as the word pagan is just like Jews using the
term gentile, it is not a question of anything being lumped into it - it has
traditionally been a term of abuse and accusation (like infidel today).
People today have proudly claimed the term Pagan, because they were being
called it anyway, but Pagan per se is not a religion - it is a non-belief in
the Hebrew God.


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