On phonetics, phonology, and homophones.

[Random832]

(If I seem to ramble, it's because i'm not good at organizing long posts)

potioncat wrote:
>> Carol:
>> Or how about "merry," "marry," and "Mary"? All homonyms for me, though
>> I realize that Easterners, Southerners, and possibly Midwesterners may
>> distinguish among them, or at least between one or two of the three.
>> As for Brits from various regions, I have no idea.
>>
> 
> 
> Potioncat;
> Well I "see" merry differently, but I think I hear them all the same. 
> Don't ask what I mean by that, but it makes sense to me. 
> 
> Our daughter's name is Sarah, a pretty name I think, but even I cringe 
> when we visit my relatives in Southern US where her name becomes Say-
> ruh. And of course, Kathleen is three syllables.
> 
> Back to Serious/Sirius. Must be my Southern ears. The i and e sound 
> alike, which is why I ask for a straight pin or an ink pen when I want 
> either, because otherwise how would you know which to give me?

Random832:
Well, it's not really the same "e" sound as in "pen" - it's actually a 
longer sound, like in "see" - which most people say in sirius, because 
of the two factors I've mentioned - sirius is an unfamiliar word so when 
guessing how to pronounce it people will go with serious, and also 
because it's an unfamiliar word, if people hear it pronounced property 
they'll put down the different vowel to the other person's accent

gah, I wish I could use IPA, or accented letters, or something to 
demonstrate this.

If anyone knows ASCII IPA or X-SAMPA notation: the vowel sound in 
"serious" is /i/, the vowel sound in "sirius" is /I/

in common dictionary notation, /i/ is an 'i' with a ^ over it (and only 
occurs before 'r' in english) - the same vowel as in "beer", and doesn't 
have the "glide" [y-ish ending] at the end like the one in "bee"

/I/ is a "short i" [i.e., 'i' with a rounded tihng opening upward over 
it, kind of like a tiny 'U', or really more shaped like '(' turned 
sideways to the left: the same vowel as "pin", (or, for you, "pen") and 
one not often seen before 'r'].

That is also the ONLY difference between the pronunciations of the two 
words - I'm not sure what the idea that -us is pronounced differently 
than -ous is coming from - having a "hint of 'o'" in any "-ous" ending 
would definitely come off as, well, pretentiOSS to my ears, and the 
historical record of how "-ou-" sounds have been behaved makes it 
extremely unlikely. (both words have a mere schwa /@/ in that position)

bboyminn:
 > The distinction made on the first part is the
 > difference between a standard short 'I' or 'I' marked
 > with a 'breve' (Sirius), and a 'circumflex' or a 'caret'
 > above the 'I' for the other(serious). Though for the
 > life of me, I can't find any pronunciation guide that
 > explains exactly how a letter modified by a 'circumflex'
 > should be pronounced.

Random832:
Well - the modifiers used in traditional english dictionaries have 
always been a bit haphazard. the circumflex normally refers to the short 
"proper" vowels:
a^ = /e/ as in 'bare'
i^ = /i/ as in 'beer'
o^ = /o/ as in 'bore'
u^r is occasionally used as a substitute for a stressed @r (@ = schwa)

of the three, "marry" is marked as a-breve, "merry" as e-breve, "mary" 
as a-circumflex

Geoff:
 >There has been a supposedly funny version of the
 > books in circulation, involving the adventures of "Hairy Potter
 > and the." but this is definitely NOT a homophone of Harry
 > in UK English.

Random832:
Gah - this is the point that irritates me the most about this thread, 
regardless of if you're talking about thickness, serious, or hairy - you 
don't need a homophone to have a pun!

...
Anyway, Like i said, it's a familiarity thing - if your first exposure 
to the name "Sirius" is through HP, and, well, they all have british 
accents, the difference in pronunciation might go right past you, and 
you'd maybe even subconsciously assume that they pronounce "Serious" the 
same way.

Carol:
 > The actors don't, however, seem to agree on the pronunciation of
 > "Cruciatus Curse." Neville pronounces "Cruciatus" as I do (krew shee A
 > tus, with an accented short "a"

Random832:
Is it a short "a" as in "cat", or as in "father"? (assuming these two 
are different)

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_short_A 
for the gory details on these two 'short "a"'s - it's towards the end.

Carol:
 >), but Karkaroff has what I would
 > consider a more distinctively British pronunciation (krew shee AY
 > tus), with an accented long "a" rather than a short one. (Karkaroff
 > may have a Slavic name, but he seems to have attended Hogwarts, so he
 > qualifies as a Brit in my view. Of course, the nationality of the
 > actor may be the real deciding factor.)

Random832:
Not exactly "British" as such, I think. It's a much more English (as in 
the language itself, not any particular regional accent) pronunciation, 
as opposed to Neville's more Latin-ish rendition. To me, it suggests 
that Neville has a much better classical education (from his grandmother 
making him study such things at home, one assumes) than Karkaroff.

Carol:
 > Also Snape's pronunciation of "Veritaserum" as "VAIR ih tuh SEER um"
 > (secondary accent on "seer") caught me offguard the first time around.
 > I pronounce it "vuh RITE uh seer um." Very American of me,

Random832:
Again, more English vs Latin than American vs British.

(not bothering to quote anyone, all/oil)
Again, I would bet anything that the distinction that native texans can 
detect between these pronunciations is of the caught-cot variety, and 
can be heard by anyone who keeps that distinction even if they 
themselves would not pronounce oil as, what I'll ("I'll" itself being a 
word rather more likely to be completely merged with "all" in various 
dialects) call 'oll'.