The War of the Roses

[a_svirn]

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" <a_svirn@> wrote:
> 
> a_svirn:
> > Not much. The Duke of York political and financial influence was
> > inherited from his maternal Uncle, the Earl of March – together 
with
> > his claim to the crown of England (and France) and his heraldic 
white
> > rose. York's own badge was falcon and fetterlock, not the rose.
> > March's estates were mostly in the Welsh March as well as Wales 
and
> > Ireland. When York's eldest son (the future king Edward IV) was
> > created the Earl of March he adopted the white rose as his badge. 
As
> > for the red rose, it was a later Tudor invention. The Tudors kind 
of
> > united both houses and came up (for propaganda purposes) with
> > the "Tudor Rose" a combination of the white rose of York and the
> > almost entirely fictional the red rose of Lancaster. 
> 
> Geoff:
> Hm. I offer into the court the following evidence....
> 
> Excerpts quoted from: www.lancashirevillages.com/redrose
> 
> Lancashire's Red Rose is an official variety, known as the Red Rose 
of 
> Lancashire, but it is more accurately named as the Red Rose of 
Lancaster. 
> Extracts from Hilliers Manual of Trees and Shrubs gives "Rosa 
Gallica 
> Officinalis", the "Red Rose of Lancaster" as a small shrub 
producing 
> richly fragrant, semi-double, rosy crimson flowers with prominent 
> yellow anthers.
> 
> Rosa gallica officinalis,was possibly the first cultivated rose and 
is the 
> first and the most famous of the Gallica roses. Originally a 
species 
> rose, it grew wild in central Asia and was first cultivated by the 
> ancient Persians and Egyptians, and later adopted by the Greeks 
> and the Romans. The Romans introduced it in Gaul (later to become 
> France) where it assumed the named Rosa gallica.
> 
> The Red Rose at Lancaster has a long and distinguished history 
which 
> is intertwined with the House of Lancaster, the War of the Roses, 
the 
> Monarchy, the County Palatine of Lancaster and the development of 
> the County of Lancashire. It was first adopted as an heraldic 
device 
> by Edmund, First Earl of Lancaster and became the emblem of 
> Lancashire, and of England as a whole, following the Battle of 
> Bosworth Field in 1485.
> 
> And quoted from: www.yorkshirehistory.com/yorkshirerose.htm
> 
> A Complete Guide to Heraldry by Arthur Charles Fox-Davies (pp 
269)                
> 
> "The use of the Rose as a political emblem may be traced to the 
wars 
> between the rival Houses of York and Lancaster, the former of which 
> used the device of a white rose, while a red one was the badge of 
the 
> other, and these came to be blazoned occasionally as the Rose of 
York 
> and Lancaster respectively. They are said to have been first 
assumed 
> by John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster, and his brother Edmund, Duke 
> of York. Both these roses were sometimes surrounded with rays, and 
> termed en soleil, and later on they were frequently conjoined."
> 
> Hardly fictional....
>

a_svirn:
Said by whom? These formulas "is said to have been" were usually 
employed when either later authors made something up, or contemporary 
ones wanted to disclaim all responsibility for whatever they were 
saying. The Red Rose of Lancaster might have some connection with the 
*duchy* of Lancaster, had but it had never ever been the heraldic 
device of the *House* of Lancaster. Neither John of Gaunt, nor any 
single one of Lancastrian kings used it as a personal badge. They 
used SS chains mostly and some other devices as signs of their 
livery. Edmund's badge was falcon and fetlock. His grandson Richard, 
once he had inherited the March estate, used the white rose 
occasionally, but mostly it was Richard's son Edward's (Edward IV) 
device. (And, characteristically, when Edward IV created his second 
son Richard the Duke of York the falcon emblem devolved to the boy 
together with the title.) Edwards's father used for the mast the 
falcon badge, and it was the York Falcon that was emblazoned all over 
London during his Protectorate. 
a_svirn