The War of the Roses

[Geoff Bannister]

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" <a_svirn at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
> <gbannister10@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" <a_svirn@> wrote:
> > 
> > a_svirn:

<snip of repeated material>

> > >The Tudors kind of
> > > united both houses and came up (for propaganda purposes) with
> > > the "Tudor Rose" a combination of the white rose of York and the
> > > almost entirely fictional the red rose of Lancaster. 
 
Geoff:

<ditto snip>
 
> > Hardly fictional....
 
a_svirn:
> Said by whom? These formulas "is said to have been" were usually 
> employed when either later authors made something up, or contemporary 
> ones wanted to disclaim all responsibility for whatever they were 
> saying. The Red Rose of Lancaster might have some connection with the 
> *duchy* of Lancaster, had but it had never ever been the heraldic 
> device of the *House* of Lancaster. Neither John of Gaunt, nor any 
> single one of Lancastrian kings used it as a personal badge. They 
> used SS chains mostly and some other devices as signs of their 
> livery. Edmund's badge was falcon and fetlock. His grandson Richard, 
> once he had inherited the March estate, used the white rose 
> occasionally, but mostly it was Richard's son Edward's (Edward IV) 
> device. (And, characteristically, when Edward IV created his second 
> son Richard the Duke of York the falcon emblem devolved to the boy 
> together with the title.) Edwards's father used for the mast the 
> falcon badge, and it was the York Falcon that was emblazoned all over 
> London during his Protectorate. 

Geoff:
But the point I am making is that, whether you agree with its use as you 
demonstrate above, the Red Rose of Lancaster exists and it and the white 
rose of York are accepted by the inhabitants of the area as their regional 
symbols.

I am a Lancastrian, brought up in the district as was my mother. My 
father was a Yorkshireman., so I could almost consider myself a Tudor. 
I was brought up  in  the culture I mentioned in the last paragraph; I am 
proud of my lineage and I consider that to describe an actual existing 
flower as "fictional" shows a lack of distinction between the historical 
fact - whether they be true or not - and the reality of the roses. 

Beware lest you are assailed by an army of irate North Country people 
advancing on you armed to the teeth with the appropriate rose bushes.