Protest the passage of Prop 8

[Tonks]

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cabal" <md at ...> wrote:
>
> I never called anyone a homophobe. I said she had "rampant 
homophobia" I didn't call her anything.
> 
> There's a difference between describing the way someone is acting 
and calling someone a name.
> 
> Actually, teachers and parents should always know that you 
describe the behavior, you do not insult the person.
> 
> If I tell my children "stop your mean behavior" I am not saying 
they are mean children, I'm saying they are acting meanly.

Earlier:
> Cabal wrote:
> > It is a scientific fact that homosexuals are born that way, they
> cannot be created, they are not made, they do not learn it and they
> never "choose" it.
> > 
> > Please take your rampant homophobia somewhere else.
> > 
> > I've heard enough hate from you, I'll not respond to your hate 
and intolerance anymore.
> 
>and Carol responded:
> Forgive me, but I'm hearing some hatred and intolerance from you, 
too, Tonks has evry right to present her ideas, and you have every 
right to disagree with them, but labels like "homophobe" won't 
persuade anyone.
SNIP> 
> Can you cite some research studies that support your point of view?
> And maybe Tonks could do the same for hers?


Tonks responds to both:

First if you read what I said, I said that homosexual behavior was 
NOT a choice. I think it is both biological and environmental. I 
have read theories of differences in sex hormones in the fetus which 
has an influence upon later development, especially in males. I also 
think that there is an environmental component related to the 
interpersonal relationship of the mother/female and the father/or 
male figure during the child's early years. Both (biology and 
environment) working together has, IMO a part in the later sexual 
orientation of the child. The homosexual does NOT have a choice. It 
is NOT as some religious persons think a matter of behavior that is 
chosen. 

As to As to Cabal's rant. I take it just as that, a rant. I do feel 
that I was being called names. I do not think that anything that I 
said could be taken as "rampant homophobia", "hate" or "intolerance".
I am merely presenting ideas.

I fail to see how we can have an intelligent discussion of this 
topic, or any topic for that matter, if we assume that any idea 
other than our own is from an enemy, and an enemy that should be 
beaten and destroyed on the spot. People who can discuss a variety 
of ideas openly can be persuaded to rethink their view points, if 
discussed in an academic manner in an open minded and tolerant 
setting. I often take a POV that I may or may not hold strongly. 
Sometimes I even take the opposite side. I do this for the sake of 
debate. (I knew that I might get some heat, that is why I wore my 
fire-proof robes when typing my orginial post. Thank god!) 

As to telling a child "stop your mean behavior" in an angry tone... 
as opposed to saying calmly "you are acting very mean right now"... 
would, IMO, have the effect of an emotionally abusive comment. If 
you ask that child later, I am willing to bet the kid would say that 
being 'mean' was in fact a comment about him as a person and not 
directed at his behavior. It is also difficult for a child to make a 
distinction between "self" and "behavior". 

Tonks_op
Where is Geoff with that hot chocolate?? I think it is time for some 
again. ;-)