[HPforGrownups] Re: Abuse, Hermione and the triad, triumvirate.

Tue Oct 3 03:01:46 UTC 2000

No: HPFGUIDX 2737

"Oh, you're so right!  I was getting just a bit sick of Susan saying "Harry 
is an abused child", making him out to be some sort of damaged, passive 
victim.  He's not!  He doesn't see himself as abused, and nor should we."

hey, settle down Jinx, its not just Susan saying that we can think about 
this aspect of Harry's life. I don't think that susan is "making" harry out 
to be anything - just considering the effect that that sort of behaviour 
would have. the fact that Harry doesn't seem himself as abused is neither 
here nor there - children rarely if ever identify the behiour of thier 
carers as abusive.

"Let me make it loud and clear - IT IS JUST A STORY.  THE DURSLEYS ARE
FICTIONAL.  THEY ARE NOT REAL."

What do you mean it's not real?  I don't understand?

"Yes, Harry's treatment by the D's qualifies as abusive behaviour.  And yes 
we do take abuse seriously.  I'm a trainee counsellor myself.  However, we 
do Harry a great disservice if we see him as an abused child with no power 
to help himself.  He's not powerless, he's a wizard and a good one."

obviously it is a dis-service not to see the strenghs in any person who has 
lived through abuse. But equally it is a dis-service to minimise or 
completely ignore the truma that has occoured to that same person because 
they may have certain strenghs.

"He has had traumas in his life, but living with the Dursleys is not one of 
them."

Hallo? have you been locked in a cupboard until the middle of the summer 
holidays? (for example) and how can Harry's treatment by the durelsy be 
abusive behvaiour but not be a trauma?

"It wasn't the Dursleys voices he heard when faced with Dementors, remember 
that.  The Dursleys are not his real parents and he has always known that, 
hence I don't think he's ever expected love from them."

All children expect love, its only adults who are able to be able to be 
rational. the worst trauma in your life is not the only truama

"And if he doesn't expect love from them, then he's not going to be as 
severely traumatised when he doesn't get it.  They don't care about him, and 
he has never cared about them in the way that he did about his parents.  And 
if you don't care about someone, they have far less power over you than 
someone you have once deeply loved.  That, I think, is why real child abuse 
is so damaging, it is the ultimate betrayal of trust.  If you have never 
really had that trust, it is not so damaging."

that is of course true for abuse in the RL, but in RL (since you are baseing 
your argrument there) the leval of trust is related to dependance. 15 month 
old babies are dependant upon thier carers for everything. It is at this 
stage that love/dependance starts. 10 yo kids are pretty dependant too.

"Harry comes out of it all so well precisely because the Dursleys never let 
him down - he didn't expect anything from them.

Abuse is a real issue in the real world.  It does not appear to be an issue 
in the Harryverse.  I have enough of issues like abuse, drugs, rape, 
violence in the real world, I definitely do not want it intruding into one 
of my escape routes.  Leave your work at the door, please."

Jinx - the wonder (for me) of JKR's books is her ability to deal with abuse 
and racism and classism and violence and dealth and unfairness and what is 
right in RL (honour and what you make of the clay you get) in a context that 
makes it palitable, even enjoyable. When we acknowledge the abuse that Harry 
lives through we just provide oursleves with another reason for him being 
such an excellant hero

Rant over.
No worries Mate,

storm

Jinx

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jinx" <jinxster at cyberlass.com>
Reply-To: HPforGrownups at egroups.com
To: <HPforGrownups at egroups.com>
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Abuse, Hermione and the triad, triumvirate.
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 00:10:53 +0100

 > That's not what I meant. I meant just what you said, that people respond
 > differently in the same situation. In the same sense that prisoners who
are
 > tortured still claim they are "free" in their own minds because they have
 > not given that last bit of their own selfhood away, Harry retains his
 > perspective and personality, and thus is not a victim. He is the 
recipient
 > of abuse, but not a victim. Another person, in the same circumstances,
might
 > have been squashed into the mold and self-image desired, and really been 
a
 > victim. It has nothing to do with blame, it's just that there are always
two
 > parties, the abuser and the abused, and the actions of both affect the
 > outcome.

Oh, you're so right!  I was getting just a bit sick of Susan saying "Harry
is an abused child", making him out to be some sort of damaged, passive
victim.  He's not!  He doesn't see himself as abused, and nor should we.

Let me make it loud and clear - IT IS JUST A STORY.  THE DURSLEYS ARE
FICTIONAL.  THEY ARE NOT REAL.  For 90% of the books, they aren't even
mentioned.  If realism was intended, the books would flop within weeks of
being published.  JKR is not writing on behalf of abuse victims, attempting
to make the world aware of their plight, she is writing for the unabused
majority, drawing on archetypal mythic themes to make it resonate (ie. the
childhood misfit discovering their true nature and benefitting humanity as a
result).  In fact, if the Dursleys were nice, there'd be too much temptation
for Harry to run away from the dangerous wizard world and his destiny of
fighting Voldemort, and try to be an ordinary Muggle again.  However, the
sheer awfulness of his Muggle life means that there's no going back.  Like
in GoF where he seriously considers leaving Hogwarts and only stops because
Hogwarts is the only place where he's ever been happy.  Also in PoA where he
runs away from the Dursleys - he's not upset because he's leaving his family
home, but because he thinks he's been expelled from Hogwarts and will thus
never be a proper wizard.

Yes, Harry's treatment by the D's qualifies as abusive behaviour.  And yes
we do take abuse seriously.  I'm a trainee counsellor myself.  However, we
do Harry a great disservice if we see him as an abused child with no power
to help himself.  He's not powerless, he's a wizard and a good one.  He has
had traumas in his life, but living with the Dursleys is not one of them.
It wasn't the Dursleys voices he heard when faced with Dementors, remember
that.  The Dursleys are not his real parents and he has always known that,
hence I don't think he's ever expected love from them.  And if he doesn't
expect love from them, then he's not going to be as severely traumatised
when he doesn't get it.  They don't care about him, and he has never cared
about them in the way that he did about his parents.  And if you don't care
about someone, they have far less power over you than someone you have once
deeply loved.  That, I think, is why real child abuse is so damaging, it is
the ultimate betrayal of trust.  If you have never really had that trust, it
is not so damaging.  Harry comes out of it all so well precisely because the
Dursleys never let him down - he didn't expect anything from them.

Abuse is a real issue in the real world.  It does not appear to be an issue
in the Harryverse.  I have enough of issues like abuse, drugs, rape,
violence in the real world, I definitely do not want it intruding into one
of my escape routes.  Leave your work at the door, please.

Rant over.

Jinx

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.