Dumbledore the not-necessarily-good (Far too long)

[Neil Ward]

No: HPFGUIDX 1213

Susan, thanks for responding to all my posts!  If the other members will
indulge me, I'll respond to you in one Hagrid-sized effort, and I'll quite
understand if you all nod off.

First of all, as most established members of this club would know, I'm not
always serious in the comments I make.  I'm also prone to throwing up wild
theories and then having other members point out something really obvious
from one of the books that negates them.  I play Harry to their Hermione,
and they walk away shaking their heads at my careless lack of research.
Just so you know 

     **
     SUSAN SAID:
     "I was not saying that you shouldn't get physically in front of me.
     That phrase is usually meant to mean "in my presence", in this case, 
     in my cyber presence, but also is a statement meant to display 
     loyalty. Sorry I wasn't more clear."
     **

You were clear and now you're stunning me with your lexicological prowess.
For the record, I did appreciate the origin and intention of the statement.
I seemed to have incurred your wrath with my Dumbledore comments and was
trying to imply, using a play on words, that I should keep out of your way
in case you trampled me under your massive hobnailed boots.  Perhaps, I
should have written <VBG> after it.   <VBG>

     **
     SUSAN SAID:
     "I wish I had saved the post. The original poster was not talking 
     about "rules" in the sense that I might have inadvertantly implied.
     S/he was discussing why great literature "works". S/he was saying 
     that great literature has integrity."
     **

Someone here (Ebony, I think) has made reference to the essay you mentioned
and will hopefully spring up and tell us what it was and who wrote it.  I'd
like to see it.

There is a difference between the phrases "how fiction works" and "why great
fiction works" but I was being a little obtuse in my response to you.   Many
writers follow literary rules to good effect and with great fiction there is
often a 'je ne sais quoi' that makes it stand out from the rest.  

If in mentioning integrity, it was implied that conventions are not
challenged, I'd disagree that integrity is necessarily the mark of great
literature.  An element of surprise and originality can lie in the fact that
the reader's expectations are dashed on the rocks, and these can be
expectations of the structure as much as the plot of a book.  

A unique twist in the imagination of the writer may be the indefinable
element that makes something great.  Integrity of the characters is more
important, I agree.  This has to extend to fan fiction for it to have any
credence, but it appears that a subset of fanfic just has fun with 'what
if...?' scenarios and that's okay too.         
 
     **
     SUSAN SAID (Re. Lord of the Rings - why do people keep mentioning it?):
     "Have you read LOTR, Neil? If you have, you'll know that these
analogies        just jump out at you.......There are dozens of
similarities....."
     **

No, I haven't read "Lord of the Rings".  Exactly like Penny, I've read "The
Hobbit" and I have a bookmark stuck about a third of the way through my copy
of LOTR, left there when I was about 20. Just shoot me!

It just struck me that there had been a series of comments made about
similarities between LOTR and the Harry Potter books [quite interesting, but
not evidence of anything], and suddenly this seminal work was being used to
support the supposition that JKR was bound to a similar balance of Good
against Evil.  The quote that Brooks dug out indicates that JKR read LOTR
when she was 14, but it obviously didn't change her life.

     **
     SUSAN SAID: (In response to my joke response to Joywitch): 
     "And just when we were having such a good argument! Neil, did you
     miss it when I said that people were complex, and that Dumbledore
     has made mistakes? (Well, you must have or you wouldn't have posted 
     this!) Please -- I know I'm eloquent -- but don't give up your 
     arguments yet!"
     **

I read and understood your eloquent comments on Dumbledore being complex and
I agree with them.  I was responding to your primary statement, following
your evidence of Dumbledore's past battles against the Dark side:
"Therefore, Albus Dumbledore is good. He is the great opponent of Lord
Voldemort, just as Gandalf is the Enemy of Sauron."  

I don't want to be labelled as 'Neil - that fool who thinks Dumbledore is
evil'.  My original intention was to try to explain why Dumbledore overlooks
Snape's unpleasant behaviour, by suggesting that this would not present such
a dilemma if Dumbledore were not automatically assumed to be the force for
good.  
Dumbledore is flawed, he is fallible and there may be some darker secrets
within him.  I threw up the idea that he might turn out to be the 'baddie'
in a startling denouement, but, deep down,  I don't really think he is evil.
I agree that he probably is a force for good, but I remain suspicious of his
motives and I don't trust him.  

In previous posts, I've also mentioned Dumbledore's mental state and
decline, as I think some of his later behaviour may fall outside his
currently accepted persona.   

There are three more books in this series and the chances are that none of
us will be able to predict what JKR has in store for Albus Dumbledore.
Personally, I see the overriding story arc turning into a power struggle,
rather than one of merely Good vs Evil.  You can string me up later, when
I'm proved wrong <g>. 

     **
     SUSAN SAID:
     I'm puzzled that those who haven't read much fantasy are anti-
     fantasy..it almost seems equivalent to those who haven't read Harry 
     Potter slamming it for devil worship....
     **

Uh? Well, Penny has already said it, but I'll add that I am not on an
anti-fantasy crusade either.  I think I said the genre seems quite rigid to
me, and I suppose I should have specified that I mean the LOTR-type stuff.
I enjoy fantasy literature and I can thank JK Rowling for having inspired my
research in this domain and opened up new possibilities for my already
groaning bookshelves. 

I may even attempt LOTR again one day.

Neil


            Flying-Ford-Anglia

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   "Then, dented, scratched and steaming, 
   the car rumbled off into the darkness, 
   its rear lights blazing angrily"

 [Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets]

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