Percy (and some Ron and some Hermione thoughts too)

[Demelza]

No: HPFGUIDX 16286

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> I know we're talking about Ron this week, but I'd had this message 
about
> Percy in my inbox for awhile, meaning to reply when I had more time.
> So, here goes:
> 
> Demelza wrote:
> 
> > Ron consoles an upset Ginny over the
> > fate of Mrs. Norris. (CoS Ch. 8) "Ginny Weasley, who had been 
looking
> > pale, was bullied into taking some [Pepperup potion] by Percy"
> > Interesting choice of words "bullied". (CoS Ch. 12) <snip>
> > Furthermore, Tom Riddle's Diary reveals in Ch. 17, that Ginny was
> > beginning to think Percy suspected she was involved with the 
Chamber
> > ("Dear, Tom, Percy keeps telling me I'm pale and I'm not myself. I
> > think he suspects me
"). That, in itself, is a credible reason for
> > Ginny's fear of Percy in Ch. 16.
> 
> Interesting.  I took the above incidents to mean that Percy was more
> perceptive than the other Weasley boys and had picked up on her
> distress.  None of the others seem to notice there's anything amiss 
with
> her.  But, Percy is perceptive enough to make her take some 
medicinal
> potion (a protective older brother rather than a bully in my mind). 
 He
> also apparently notices and comments more than once that she is 
pale,
> doesn't look well & doesn't seem herself.  How can this be anything
> other than concern for her?  She may be interpreting his concern
> strangely, because she's worried that she will lose his respect/love 
if
> he finds out the "truth" about what's ailing her.  But, he clearly
> demonstrates concern for her.  I don't think she's afraid of Percy 
so
> much as she's afraid of him losing respect for her.  That's really 
what
> I was getting at when I said that she "hero-worships" him.  That 
wasn't
> the right choice of words.  But, what I mean is that Ginny does seem 
to
> value his good opinion of her.
> 

CoS Ch 9, Ron comforts Ginny but also informs Harry that Ginny is 
upset about Mrs. Norris' attack. Ron tells Harry that Ginny likes cats 
and assumes that is why she is overly upset. So Ron DOES recognize 
that Ginny is upset. His solution is words of comfort, whereas, 
Percy's solution is a chemical concoction. It could be how each 
brother interprets Ginny. Ron recognizes her emotional distress and 
Percy recognizes her physical distress.

> > So let's examine what the books contain about Percy and his 
attitudes
> > toward his family.
> > <snip>
> > (CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to his
> > parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George and Ron 
sit
> > in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's abduction as a 
"time
> > of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from his brothers. 
Throughout
> > the books, Percy is portrayed as reliable and responsible and 
ready
> > to show it. As the eldest Weasley at Hogwarts, Percy was the de 
facto
> > head of the Weasley family. Yet, he is locked up in his dormitory
> > while his younger brothers sit together in shock. That's not being
> > terribly supportive or consoling at a time of trouble.
> 
> > Milz added: As
> > the oldest, Percy should have tried to comfort his brothers 
instead of
> > locking himself in his room. I know it's unfair but the older kids 
in
> > a family are usually given the job of being mentors to the younger
> > kids, you know, the "big brother or big sister". Percy kind of 
shunned
> > his duty, so to speak.
> >
> 
> Someone else commented on this, but it bears repeating.  Everyone
> handles crisis differently.  Percy is just the type to need solitary
> introspective time at that point, and I don't think it's fair to be
> judgmental about him because of the way he needs/chooses to handle
> stress & grief.  It's clear that he's very different from the twins 
and
> Ron as far as his personality goes.  I don't know that it's at all 
fair
> to suggest that he has a "duty" to be outwardly & publicly 
comforting to
> his siblings just because he's "de facto" the eldest Weasley.  He's 
got
> a right to handle grief & shock in the way that most suits his own
> personality.  IMO.
> 

I can't argue that people deal with stress differently. However, that 
passage was my response to the assertion that Percy has been 
supportive to his family. This is an example of Percy's lack of 
familial support. 

> > (GoF Ch. 26) During the Second Task, Ron and Harry are swimming 
with
> > Gabrielle toward the bank. Percy runs to the bank and pulls Ron 
up.
> > Percy is described as "pale".
> 
> He looked "white and somehow younger than usual."  You left out the 
last
> bit.  He also waded out to meet them.  He abandoned the dignity of 
being
> a judge and took off out into the lake.  I'm amazed that anyone 
could
> put a negative spin on Percy for this particular scene.  What it 
says to
> me is: in the face of true physical danger to a family member, Percy
> will abandon rules, authority & his position.
> 
> > A few paragraphs later, Madame Pomphrey frees Ron from "Percy's
> > clutches." The word choice is interesting. There is almost a 
negative
> > connotation generally associated with 'clutches', ie, the clutches 
of
> > a madman.
> 
> I wouldn't put that spin on it at all.  I see it as a word that 
shows
> strong emotional connection.
> 
> > Percy's actions in this case are not clear-cut. He could have been
> > really be concerned for Ron: Ron is underwater for more than the 
one
> > hour. On
> > the other hand, Ron is in a positive spotlight. Fleur is beside
> > herself with worry because she could not rescue her sister. Ron 
and
> > Harry emerge from the surface with the little girl and swim with 
her
> > to the bank. The boys look like heroes. Ron has not embarrassed
> > anyone nor has misbehaved. Furthermore, Ron tells Harry that
> > Dumbledore wouldn't let anyone drown. Surely, Percy, who's 
Ministry
> > Department helped to organize the Tournament, would know this too.
> > Again, taking all things into consideration, this Percy action is 
not
> > objectively clear-cut.
> 
> Oh, c'mon!  Sure, Percy as a judge objectively knew the rules, but 
he
> was so concerned about Ron's well-being that he completely forgot 
the
> "rules" for once & acted completely on his emotions.  IMO anyway.  I
> just see very little room for argument that Percy waded into the 
lake &
> clutched at Ron, looking "younger than usual," as a means of drawing
> attention to himself & away from Ron and Harry!  Sorry .... but I 
can't
> see that there's much basis to this argument.  If he'd wanted to 
assume
> his usual stance of "authority figure," he'd have simply waited at 
the
> water's edge & launched into a lecture the second Ron touched land.

My interpretations of Percy's action here is based upon Percy's prior 
actions. That's why I find this passage difficult to interpret 
difinitively. As I stated, on the one hand Percy could be acting out 
of true brotherly concern. On the other hand, Percy could be acting 
out of brotherly concern with a prospect of personal gain. From what 
we have seen of Percy in the books and chapters leading up to this 
incident, he tends to take sides with others when his family is in a 
fix, for example solely blaming Arthur for the post-World cup Ministry 
events. As I wrote earlier, even Molly thought that was unfounded and 
chastized him for that comment. Again, it's a passage that I can see 
interpreted in different ways.

> 
> > I said: >However,  my bet is with Hermione's judgment, not Ron's.
> >
> > Let's look at Ron's judgement in comparision to Hermione's.
> > <snip> In spite of Trelawney's track record, Hermione still 
considered
> > her a "fraud".
> 
> JKR does seem to be poking fun at Trelawney though, and most of her
> "correct" perdictions are easily explained away by logic or
> coincidence.  Dumbledore himself attributes her with only 2 correct
> predictions; you've given her a far greater track record.  <g>
>

Trelawny's predictions are partially correct. IIRC, she advise Parvati 
to beware of a red-haired man, when it was Padma who was on the date 
from hell with Ron. Hermione, however, does not allow herself to even 
consider Trelawney can be correct with the Voldemort prediction. She's 
too concrete.

> > Hermione's assessment of Crouch, Sr. was based on his harsh 
treatment
> > of Winky.
> 
> Yes, but it goes deeper than that.  As Sirius said, to get the 
measure
> of a man, look at how he treats his subordinates.  Sirius thinks
> Hermione has used a good tool for discerning Crouch Sr.'s true
> character.
> 

Who a person views as his inferior is not confined to co-workers. 
Hermione cannot see how Percy treats his family. Perhaps this is due 
to her concrete thinking: Percy is a Weasley, ergo, there is no 
possibility that he could turn on his family. Nothing in this world is 
100%, with any luck Hermione will realize.

> > Unlike, Lucius Malfoy, Crouch Sr. seems to have respected Winky 
enough
> > to consider her opinions. Dobby was terrified of Malfoy. Winky
> > retained a fondness for the Crouches: that should have raised a 
red
> > flag.
> 
> Dobby is the exception rather than the rule.  He's consistently 
painted
> as the "odd bird" amongst house-elves.  Winky is illustrating the
> typical house elf attitude of complete & total subservience, even in 
the
> face of disgrace & poor treatment.  I don't think Crouch considered 
her
> opinions as much as he had some guilt working for his neglect of his 
son
> during the formative years.
>
 
I think the House-elves are good examples of "one man's hell is 
another man's heaven". Winky is happy with her servitude. Dobby isn't. 
Who is right and who is wrong depends upon the values and opinions of 
the interpreter. They also exemplify that the only time one can change 
is if one's truly desires to change.

If Crouch were the horrible man as Hermione makes him out to be, why 
should he feel guilt? Most heart-less characters in literature are 
incapable of feeling guilt/remorse. Based upon Hermione's portrayal, 
Crouch Sr. is a cold, cruel, heart-less individual. Winky's pleadings 
should not have made difference at all.   

> > Hermione's insistance that Crookshanks wasn't out to get Scabbers, 
as
> > Ron believed, was wrong. Crookshanks conspired with Black to get
> > Scabbers. Granted, Scabbers turned out to be a homicidal traitor, 
but
> > it still does not negate the fact that Hermione was wrong about
> > Crookshank.
> 
> Ron was wrong there too.  :--)

Ch 9 PoA, 
***
As Harry opened the door, something brushed against his leg. He bent 
down just in time to grab Crooskshanks by the end of his bushy tail 
and drag him outside.
"You, know, I reckon Ron was right about you, " Harry told Crookshanks 
suspiciously. "There are plenty of mice around this place--go chase 
them."
***
In short, Harry thought Crookshanks was after Scabbers.
By this time in the book, Scabbers was thin and sickly. Why a cat 
would want to eat a sickly rat instead of a nice healthy, fat one is 
beyond logic. Crookshanks WAS after Scabbers, maybe not to kill him, 
but he definitely did target Scabbers. Hermione chalked it up to 
normal cat behavior and , again, refused to entertain the possibility 
of something else at play.   

Actually, they were all amazed that Scabbers was Peter Pettigrew. 
Initially, Hermione couldn't believe that Sirius was an animagus 
because he wasn't registered. 

> > Hermione's assessment of the Ron-Harry feud (GoF Chs.17-20) has
> > always puzzled me. Hermione assesses that Ron is jealous of Harry.
> > Yet, as readers, we are privy to the break-up (GoF Ch. 20). Ron
> > thinks Harry managed to get around the Goblet's age barrier, 
thinks
> > Harry purposely didn't tell Ron and thinks Harry's denials are 
lies.
> 
> But, Ron's reactions are motivated by jealousy.  Harry ends up with
> everything.  I always thought Ron was using the "you're lying to me"
> business as a cover-up for "You're years below the age-line but 
still
> you get to compete for that money & glory."
>

I wrote this in the Ron Week Questions message, but I'm hard-pressed 
to find anything in the books and the chapters of GoF preceding the 
feud that indicates Ron is jealous of Harry. 
 
> > Harry is upset because Ron doesn't believe him. Ron's admission in
> > Gof Ch. 20 is not a revelation of jealousy but a revelation that
> > Harry was indeed telling the truth ("Harry," [Ron] said, very
> > seriously, "whoever put your name in the goblet--I--I reckon 
they're
> > trying to do you in!"). The basis for the feud is more of trust.
> 
> Amy Z said it far better than I did, but yes, Ron's jealousy is the
> underlying reason for the feud.  Ron is jealous of Harry and that
> jealousy turns into stubborn pride.  He refuses to admit that Harry 
was
> telling the truth when he said he didn't put his own name in the
> Goblet.  He refuses to admit that Harry might be in danger because
> someone else put his name in the Goblet instead.  He's so eaten up 
with
> jealousy over the potential winnings & glory that he can't even see 
how
> shocked/stunned/scared Harry is when his name comes out of the 
Goblet.
> Hermione saw this; how is it that Ron didn't?  Jealousy.  I think he
> can't admit the truth because he'd have to put his jealousy aside to 
do
> so.
> 

GoF, Ch 20. 
***
"Harry," [Ron] said, very seriously, "whoever put your name in the 
goblet--I--I reckon they're trying to do you in!"
***

This certainly isn't a declaration of "I'm so sorry Harry", but the 
implication is there. 

> > The difference, IMO, between Ron's and Hermione's judgment is that
> > Hermione has a pattern of thinking "black and white".  She judges 
a
> > person's/thing's character as "good" and cannot entertain any 
"bad"
> > actions from that person/thing (example; Crookshanks). Conversely 
she
> > judges a person/thing as "bad" and cannot entertain any "good" 
from
> > that person (example; that "old fraud" Trelawney). Ron sees the 
"gray
> > areas". Yes Dumbledore is great, but he can still be wrong. IMO, 
this
> > quality gives Ron more objectivity than Hermione in judging 
character.
> 
> Ron certainly employs black/white logic when thinking about Snape
> though, doesn't he?  Hermione, OTOH, is clearly capable of seeing
> Snape's gray areas.
> 
> Amy Z wrote:
> 
> > She proves to be wrong about Crookshanks--he =is= out to get
> > Scabbers--but I think this is less a case of believing no evil of 
her
> > own cat than putting his behavior down to normal cat behavior.  
She
> > doesn't say he isn't chasing Scabbers; she just says it's because 
he's
> > a cat and Scabbers is a rat.  She's wrong, of course, but she's 
not as
> > blind as you're making her out to be.
> >
> Perfect!  Couldn't have said it better myself.  <g>
> 
> Penny
> (card-carrying member of Percy Fans Unite!)

Snape---well, it's too early to be certain of Snape. I want to reserve 
any opinions about him until after I've read the next books.

About "normal cat behavior", Hermione owned a cat. Ron owned a rat. 
"Normal" (maybe "instinctive" is a better term?) cat behavior dictates 
that cats are predators of rats and rodents among other things. 
Therefore, is it the responsible action of a cat owner to allow cat to 
be near a pet rat and pooh-pooh the fears of the rat owner that the 
cat is after the pet rat? It's rather telling of the regard Hermione 
has for Ron and his possessions. 

Demelza