Percy (and some Ron and some Hermione thoughts too)

[Indigo]

No: HPFGUIDX 16296

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Demelza" <muggle-reader at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> 
> wrote:
> > Hi --
> > 
> > I know we're talking about Ron this week, but I'd had this 
message 
> about
> > Percy in my inbox for awhile, meaning to reply when I had more 
time.
> > So, here goes:
> > 
> > Demelza wrote:
> > 
> > > Ron consoles an upset Ginny over the
> > > fate of Mrs. Norris. (CoS Ch. 8) "Ginny Weasley, who had been 
> looking
> > > pale, was bullied into taking some [Pepperup potion] by Percy"
> > > Interesting choice of words "bullied". (CoS Ch. 12) <snip>
> > > Furthermore, Tom Riddle's Diary reveals in Ch. 17, that Ginny 
was
> > > beginning to think Percy suspected she was involved with the 
> Chamber
> > > ("Dear, Tom, Percy keeps telling me I'm pale and I'm not 
myself. I
> > > think he suspects me
"). That, in itself, is a credible reason 
for
> > > Ginny's fear of Percy in Ch. 16.
> > 
> > Interesting.  I took the above incidents to mean that Percy was 
more
> > perceptive than the other Weasley boys and had picked up on her
> > distress.  None of the others seem to notice there's anything 
amiss 
> with
> > her.  But, Percy is perceptive enough to make her take some 
> medicinal
> > potion (a protective older brother rather than a bully in my 
mind). 
>  He
> > also apparently notices and comments more than once that she is 
> pale,
> > doesn't look well & doesn't seem herself.  How can this be 
anything
> > other than concern for her?  She may be interpreting his concern
> > strangely, because she's worried that she will lose his 
respect/love 
> if
> > he finds out the "truth" about what's ailing her.  But, he clearly
> > demonstrates concern for her.  I don't think she's afraid of 
Percy 
> so
> > much as she's afraid of him losing respect for her.  That's 
really 
> what
> > I was getting at when I said that she "hero-worships" him.  That 
> wasn't
> > the right choice of words.  But, what I mean is that Ginny does 
seem 
> to
> > value his good opinion of her.
> > 
> 
> CoS Ch 9, Ron comforts Ginny but also informs Harry that Ginny is 
> upset about Mrs. Norris' attack. Ron tells Harry that Ginny likes 
cats 
> and assumes that is why she is overly upset. So Ron DOES recognize 
> that Ginny is upset. His solution is words of comfort, whereas, 
> Percy's solution is a chemical concoction. It could be how each 
> brother interprets Ginny. Ron recognizes her emotional distress and 
> Percy recognizes her physical distress.


I don't think it was so much intentional slight on Percy's part as 
the fact that he thinks he has to be Head Boy first and Big Brother 
second.  Possibly, Percy figured Ron was already doing the "there, 
there, Ginny, it's okay now," so it would be smothering to her if 
both of her elder brothers were doing so? 

> 
> > > So let's examine what the books contain about Percy and his 
> attitudes
> > > toward his family.
> > > <snip>
> > > (CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to his
> > > parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George and 
Ron 
> sit
> > > in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's abduction as a 
> "time
> > > of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from his brothers. 
> Throughout
> > > the books, Percy is portrayed as reliable and responsible and 
> ready
> > > to show it. As the eldest Weasley at Hogwarts, Percy was the de 
> facto
> > > head of the Weasley family. Yet, he is locked up in his 
dormitory
> > > while his younger brothers sit together in shock. That's not 
being
> > > terribly supportive or consoling at a time of trouble.
> > 
> > > Milz added: As
> > > the oldest, Percy should have tried to comfort his brothers 
> instead of
> > > locking himself in his room. I know it's unfair but the older 
kids 
> in
> > > a family are usually given the job of being mentors to the 
younger
> > > kids, you know, the "big brother or big sister". Percy kind of 
> shunned
> > > his duty, so to speak.
> > >
> > 
> > Someone else commented on this, but it bears repeating.  Everyone
> > handles crisis differently.  Percy is just the type to need 
solitary
> > introspective time at that point, and I don't think it's fair to 
be
> > judgmental about him because of the way he needs/chooses to handle
> > stress & grief.  It's clear that he's very different from the 
twins 
> and
> > Ron as far as his personality goes.  I don't know that it's at 
all 
> fair
> > to suggest that he has a "duty" to be outwardly & publicly 
> comforting to
> > his siblings just because he's "de facto" the eldest Weasley.  
He's 
> got
> > a right to handle grief & shock in the way that most suits his own
> > personality.  IMO.
> > 
> 
> I can't argue that people deal with stress differently. However, 
that 
> passage was my response to the assertion that Percy has been 
> supportive to his family. This is an example of Percy's lack of 
> familial support. 

I think Percy tends a tad bit toward solitude and self-centeredness.  
He shut himself away to write to his Ravenclaw girlfriend as well, 
and was worried people would find out he even _had_ a girlfriend. I 
don't think it was out of malice, or the need to grieve alone. I just 
think that when Percy has heavy weight on his mind, he goes hermit.  

Plus, there's always the possibility that the other boys had each 
other, and didn't want or need him.

Fred & George especially probably give Percy that impression what 
with changing his badge to read BigHead Boy and otherwise making fun 
of him for being so proper and formal. 
> 
> > > (GoF Ch. 26) During the Second Task, Ron and Harry are swimming 
> with
> > > Gabrielle toward the bank. Percy runs to the bank and pulls Ron 
> up.
> > > Percy is described as "pale".
> > 
> > He looked "white and somehow younger than usual."  You left out 
the 
> last
> > bit.  He also waded out to meet them.  He abandoned the dignity 
of 
> being
> > a judge and took off out into the lake.  I'm amazed that anyone 
> could
> > put a negative spin on Percy for this particular scene.  What it 
> says to
> > me is: in the face of true physical danger to a family member, 
Percy
> > will abandon rules, authority & his position.
> > 
> > > A few paragraphs later, Madame Pomphrey frees Ron from "Percy's
> > > clutches." The word choice is interesting. There is almost a 
> negative
> > > connotation generally associated with 'clutches', ie, the 
clutches 
> of
> > > a madman.
> > 
> > I wouldn't put that spin on it at all.  I see it as a word that 
> shows
> > strong emotional connection.

I'm inclined to agree with the person who said clutches usually is 
what a villain has a damsel in...that is to say,  negative. :/ 
> > 
> > > Percy's actions in this case are not clear-cut. He could have 
been
> > > really be concerned for Ron: Ron is underwater for more than 
the 
> one
> > > hour.

I imagine there was some concern there, but Percy has absolute faith 
in The System.  As Ron pointed out to Harry, there is NO way that 
Dumbledore and the other teachers would have let the hostages drown. 

 On
> > > the other hand, Ron is in a positive spotlight. Fleur is beside
> > > herself with worry because she could not rescue her sister. Ron 
> and
> > > Harry emerge from the surface with the little girl and swim 
with 
> her
> > > to the bank. The boys look like heroes. Ron has not embarrassed
> > > anyone nor has misbehaved. Furthermore, Ron tells Harry that
> > > Dumbledore wouldn't let anyone drown. Surely, Percy, who's 
> Ministry
> > > Department helped to organize the Tournament, would know this 
too.
> > > Again, taking all things into consideration, this Percy action 
is 
> not
> > > objectively clear-cut.
> > 
> > Oh, c'mon!  Sure, Percy as a judge objectively knew the rules, 
but 
> he
> > was so concerned about Ron's well-being that he completely forgot 
> the
> > "rules" for once & acted completely on his emotions.  IMO 
anyway.  I
> > just see very little room for argument that Percy waded into the 
> lake &
> > clutched at Ron, looking "younger than usual," as a means of 
drawing
> > attention to himself & away from Ron and Harry!  Sorry .... but I 
> can't
> > see that there's much basis to this argument.  If he'd wanted to 
> assume
> > his usual stance of "authority figure," he'd have simply waited 
at 
> the
> > water's edge & launched into a lecture the second Ron touched 
land.

A lecture on what?  

Ron was chosen by the Tournament committee, with Dumbledore's okay, 
to be Harry's hostage.  
> 
> My interpretations of Percy's action here is based upon Percy's 
prior 
> actions. That's why I find this passage difficult to interpret 
> difinitively. As I stated, on the one hand Percy could be acting 
out 
> of true brotherly concern. On the other hand, Percy could be acting 
> out of brotherly concern with a prospect of personal gain. From 
what 
> we have seen of Percy in the books and chapters leading up to this 
> incident, he tends to take sides with others when his family is in 
a 
> fix, for example solely blaming Arthur for the post-World cup 
Ministry 
> events. As I wrote earlier, even Molly thought that was unfounded 
and 
> chastized him for that comment. Again, it's a passage that I can 
see 
> interpreted in different ways.
> 
> > 
> > > I said: >However,  my bet is with Hermione's judgment, not 
Ron's.
> > >
> > > Let's look at Ron's judgement in comparision to Hermione's.
> > > <snip> In spite of Trelawney's track record, Hermione still 
> considered
> > > her a "fraud".
> > 
> > JKR does seem to be poking fun at Trelawney though, and most of 
her
> > "correct" perdictions are easily explained away by logic or
> > coincidence.  Dumbledore himself attributes her with only 2 
correct
> > predictions; you've given her a far greater track record.  <g>
> >
> 
> Trelawny's predictions are partially correct. IIRC, she advise 
Parvati 
> to beware of a red-haired man, when it was Padma who was on the 
date 
> from hell with Ron. Hermione, however, does not allow herself to 
even 
> consider Trelawney can be correct with the Voldemort prediction. 
She's 
> too concrete.
> 
> > > Hermione's assessment of Crouch, Sr. was based on his harsh 
> treatment
> > > of Winky.
> > 
> > Yes, but it goes deeper than that.  As Sirius said, to get the 
> measure
> > of a man, look at how he treats his subordinates.  Sirius thinks
> > Hermione has used a good tool for discerning Crouch Sr.'s true
> > character.
> > 
> 
> Who a person views as his inferior is not confined to co-workers. 

[Muggle intrusion:  Come work where I work. A guy who's worked here 
about a year is constantly complaining that nobody treats him the 
same since his promotion -- like he can't be trusted to rub elbows.  
So some folks view themselves as inferior to him now, insofar as the 
corporate pecking order goes.] 

> Hermione cannot see how Percy treats his family. Perhaps this is 
due 
> to her concrete thinking: Percy is a Weasley, ergo, there is no 
> possibility that he could turn on his family. Nothing in this world 
is 
> 100%, with any luck Hermione will realize.

Hope she's finally beginning to catch on.  No doubt she knows about 
Lockhart now, and she has seen for herself that Black was an innocent 
man. 
> 
> > > Unlike, Lucius Malfoy, Crouch Sr. seems to have respected Winky 
> enough
> > > to consider her opinions. Dobby was terrified of Malfoy. Winky
> > > retained a fondness for the Crouches: that should have raised a 
> red
> > > flag.
> > 
> > Dobby is the exception rather than the rule.  He's consistently 
> painted
> > as the "odd bird" amongst house-elves.  Winky is illustrating the
> > typical house elf attitude of complete & total subservience, even 
in 
> the
> > face of disgrace & poor treatment.  I don't think Crouch 
considered 
> her
> > opinions as much as he had some guilt working for his neglect of 
his 
> son
> > during the formative years.
> >
>  
> I think the House-elves are good examples of "one man's hell is 
> another man's heaven". Winky is happy with her servitude. Dobby 
isn't. 
> Who is right and who is wrong depends upon the values and opinions 
of 
> the interpreter. They also exemplify that the only time one can 
change 
> is if one's truly desires to change.

Agreed. The other house-elves seemed embarrassed and unhappy and 
tried to get Hermione and her SPEW spiel out the door as quickly as 
possible. But we don't know how they reacted once she was gone.  Did 
they talk amongst themselves and say "Lovely, sweet, clever Hermione 
Granger is trying to help us poor elves!"  or did they say, "Oh! That 
Hermione Granger is going to ruin everything for us!"  

Also, keep in mind that Dumbledore is probably kinder to house-elves 
than most folks. 
> 
> If Crouch were the horrible man as Hermione makes him out to be, 
why 
> should he feel guilt? Most heart-less characters in literature are 
> incapable of feeling guilt/remorse. Based upon Hermione's 
portrayal, 
> Crouch Sr. is a cold, cruel, heart-less individual. Winky's 
pleadings 
> should not have made difference at all.   
> 
> > > Hermione's insistance that Crookshanks wasn't out to get 
Scabbers, 
> as
> > > Ron believed, was wrong. Crookshanks conspired with Black to get
> > > Scabbers. Granted, Scabbers turned out to be a homicidal 
traitor, 
> but
> > > it still does not negate the fact that Hermione was wrong about
> > > Crookshank.
> > 
> > Ron was wrong there too.  :--)
> 
> Ch 9 PoA, 
> ***
> As Harry opened the door, something brushed against his leg. He 
bent 
> down just in time to grab Crooskshanks by the end of his bushy tail 
> and drag him outside.
> "You, know, I reckon Ron was right about you, " Harry told 
Crookshanks 
> suspiciously. "There are plenty of mice around this place--go chase 
> them."
> ***
> In short, Harry thought Crookshanks was after Scabbers.
> By this time in the book, Scabbers was thin and sickly. Why a cat 
> would want to eat a sickly rat instead of a nice healthy, fat one 
is 
> beyond logic. Crookshanks WAS after Scabbers, maybe not to kill 
him, 
> but he definitely did target Scabbers. Hermione chalked it up to 
> normal cat behavior and , again, refused to entertain the 
possibility 
> of something else at play.   
> 
> Actually, they were all amazed that Scabbers was Peter Pettigrew. 
> Initially, Hermione couldn't believe that Sirius was an animagus 
> because he wasn't registered. 

True, but Crookshanks did choose Scabbers over any other rodent.  
Even so far back as the pet shop.  There were trick-roping rats and 
mice and Crookshanks left *them* alone.   [In fairness, yes, there 
could be an anti-cat spell on their cage to prevent such an attack by 
a cat.]  
> 
> > > Hermione's assessment of the Ron-Harry feud (GoF Chs.17-20) has
> > > always puzzled me. Hermione assesses that Ron is jealous of 
Harry.

Nettled, maybe, more than just jealous. 

> > > Yet, as readers, we are privy to the break-up (GoF Ch. 20). Ron
> > > thinks Harry managed to get around the Goblet's age barrier, 
> thinks
> > > Harry purposely didn't tell Ron and thinks Harry's denials are 
> lies.
> > 
> > But, Ron's reactions are motivated by jealousy.  Harry ends up 
with
> > everything.  I always thought Ron was using the "you're lying to 
me"
> > business as a cover-up for "You're years below the age-line but 
> still
> > you get to compete for that money & glory."

But Ron *knows* Harry is willing to share, and doesn't want to take 
charity. Ron *only* accepted a pair of play-by-play binoculars if he 
could pay Harry back for them.

He was embarrassed and upset that what he paid Harry back *with* was 
Fairy Gold, and that it disappeared *without Harry even noticing*.  

> >
> 
> I wrote this in the Ron Week Questions message, but I'm hard-
pressed 
> to find anything in the books and the chapters of GoF preceding the 
> feud that indicates Ron is jealous of Harry. 
>  
> > > Harry is upset because Ron doesn't believe him. Ron's admission 
in
> > > Gof Ch. 20 is not a revelation of jealousy but a revelation that
> > > Harry was indeed telling the truth ("Harry," [Ron] said, very
> > > seriously, "whoever put your name in the goblet--I--I reckon 
> they're
> > > trying to do you in!"). The basis for the feud is more of trust.
> > 
> > Amy Z said it far better than I did, but yes, Ron's jealousy is 
the
> > underlying reason for the feud.  Ron is jealous of Harry and that
> > jealousy turns into stubborn pride.  He refuses to admit that 
Harry 
> was
> > telling the truth when he said he didn't put his own name in the
> > Goblet.  He refuses to admit that Harry might be in danger because
> > someone else put his name in the Goblet instead.  He's so eaten 
up 
> with
> > jealousy over the potential winnings & glory that he can't even 
see 
> how
> > shocked/stunned/scared Harry is when his name comes out of the 
> Goblet.
> > Hermione saw this; how is it that Ron didn't?  Jealousy.  I think 
he
> > can't admit the truth because he'd have to put his jealousy aside 
to 
> do
> > so.
> > 
> 
> GoF, Ch 20. 
> ***
> "Harry," [Ron] said, very seriously, "whoever put your name in the 
> goblet--I--I reckon they're trying to do you in!"
> ***
> 
> This certainly isn't a declaration of "I'm so sorry Harry", but the 
> implication is there. 
> 
True.  But I think Ron should've swallowed his pride -- especially 
after Harry had to rescue him from the lake. 

> > > The difference, IMO, between Ron's and Hermione's judgment is 
that
> > > Hermione has a pattern of thinking "black and white".  She 
judges 
> a
> > > person's/thing's character as "good" and cannot entertain any 
> "bad"
> > > actions from that person/thing (example; Crookshanks). 
Conversely 
> she
> > > judges a person/thing as "bad" and cannot entertain any "good" 
> from
> > > that person (example; that "old fraud" Trelawney). Ron sees the 
> "gray
> > > areas". Yes Dumbledore is great, but he can still be wrong. 
IMO, 
> this
> > > quality gives Ron more objectivity than Hermione in judging 
> character.
> > 
> > Ron certainly employs black/white logic when thinking about Snape
> > though, doesn't he?  Hermione, OTOH, is clearly capable of seeing
> > Snape's gray areas.
> > 
> > Amy Z wrote:
> > 
> > > She proves to be wrong about Crookshanks--he =is= out to get
> > > Scabbers--but I think this is less a case of believing no evil 
of 
> her
> > > own cat than putting his behavior down to normal cat behavior.  
> She
> > > doesn't say he isn't chasing Scabbers; she just says it's 
because 
> he's
> > > a cat and Scabbers is a rat.  She's wrong, of course, but she's 
> not as
> > > blind as you're making her out to be.
> > >
> > Perfect!  Couldn't have said it better myself.  <g>
> > 
> > Penny
> > (card-carrying member of Percy Fans Unite!)
> 
> Snape---well, it's too early to be certain of Snape. I want to 
reserve 
> any opinions about him until after I've read the next books.
> 
> About "normal cat behavior", Hermione owned a cat. Ron owned a rat. 
> "Normal" (maybe "instinctive" is a better term?) cat behavior 
dictates 
> that cats are predators of rats and rodents among other things. 
> Therefore, is it the responsible action of a cat owner to allow cat 
to 
> be near a pet rat and pooh-pooh the fears of the rat owner that the 
> cat is after the pet rat? It's rather telling of the regard 
Hermione 
> has for Ron and his possessions. 

Agreed again.  But perhaps Hermione is taking this as an opportunity 
for the times Ron has said unkind things to or about her.  He did 
reduce her to tears first year when he said "maybe she realized 
that's why she doesn't have any friends."  He felt bad about it, but 
again, never came right out and said "I'm sorry." 


Indigo
[who's amazing the Potterites she works with by quoting from the list 
at them!]