Abanes Answers Witch

[rabanesss at yahoo.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 17550

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:


 Welcome to Richard, who's either just joined or just delurked. 
It's very flattering to be able to discuss the aspects of your book 
with which some of us take issue with you onlist. Please do 
bear in mind that the members of this list do respect and trust 
each other implicitly, so when you denigrate Dave (or any other 
member), we do naturally have a negative reaction to you.

ANSWER: My pleasure to be here. Agreed.


> Simon's point, that Harry rescues Gabrielle at this juncture, as 
well as  saving Pettigrew's life in PoA, is excellent. Surely this 
does show moral fiber?

ANSWER: See my posted response to simon.


> When? Where? Give us references (chapter, not page, 
because not all of us  have the same edition), please. I don't 
think any of our 1100+ members would consider Harry unethical.

ANSWER: Oh goodness. This is why I wrote the book. I can't 
condense into a board post 8 chapters (PART 1) in which I 
summarize each of Rowling's books (using 1 whole chapter per 
book), then offer an analysis of each book (yet another chapter 
per book). Let me just say that if you carefully go through each 
book, you will see a consistent presentation of "good" characters 
doing bad things when ENTIRELY unnecessary (thus preventing 
any argument of "well-they-had-to-lie-in-order-to-etc.-etc." A few 
examples for those who know the Potter series:

1. Harry and indeed all the so-called good characters CHEAT 
throughout the Tri-Wizard tournament. Interestingly, if Harry 
would have had some integrity, and not cheated like everyone 
else, he probably would have lost and Cedric would still be alive.
2. Harry not only helps Hagrid break the restrictions he is under 
per Dumbledore, but also helps Hagrid break Wizard Laws 
against illegal pets.
3. Harry consistently breaks school rules and lies to, well, just 
about everyone whnever it is convenient. As Dumbledore so 
beautifully articulates, "[T]he truth is GENERALLY preferrable to 
lies (4:722). Generally???? Now that's a good lesson for my kid.
4. Hagrid, as lovable as he may appear to be, actually is one of 
the biggest rule-breaking, misbehaving, self-centered, 
law-breaking criminal of the series. Oh, and if you notice, he is 
regularly drunk!! Again, what a great role-model.
5. Another excellent role model is Mr. Weasley (sarcasm). This 
guy is nothing but a weak-willed hypocrite who lies to his wife. 
His two boys run ruffshod oer him. he is SUPPOSED to keep 
wizards from bewitching muggle artifacts (even having them 
arrested), while he himself does exactly what he is supposed to 
be standing against (like cops who take cocaine from busts and 
sell it). And he lies to his wife -- great.
    Just a few of MANY examples. My book lists hundreds.



> Show me documentary evidence, by a *respected* source 
>(this would exclude  Bob Jones University and its ilk, by the 
>way). Not *one* child who has had  links to Paganism or the 
>occult (see below for definition) has ever killed  anybody or even 
>participated in any of the recent teen violence across the  US -- 
>it's completely contrary to the tenets of Paganism. (Here, in 
>Paganism, I'm referring to many different Earth Religion paths.)   
>Perhaps you should have done some more research before 
>making statements  like that. Hope your book's not the same.

ANSWER: Oh dear, you do have your head in the sand, don't you. 
Since I don't hav ethe time to list the hundreds of examples 
available. I suggest that you simply go to a search engine and 
enter phrases/words like "occult, murder" or "vampire cult" or 
"teens murder occult" -- you'll get all the examples you need. 
Wake up. Oh, by the way, Sean Sellers, executed on Feb. 4, 1999 
was a practicing occultist when he brutally murdered 3 people, 
including his parents in 1986. Also, occult involvement actually 
has indeed been identified as one of the warning signs of 
potential violence in a child, according to psychologist Reid 
Kimbrough of The justice Center, a Nashville-based organization 
that conducts seminars nationwide for law enforcement 
personnel and educators relative to youth and school violence. 
Also Norvin Richard, chairman of the Philosophy Department at 
University of Alabama says the same thing. (You asked for only 
ONE source, but here are two. Use Internet search engines for 
more).  Kimbrough, who since 1997 has been teaching his 
"Children at High Risk for Violent Behavior" course, says occult 
involvement includes a student listening to music which has 
death or suicide in its lyrics, possessing paraphernalia such as 
skulls, black candles or a satanic bible, preoccupation with a 
Ouija board or tarot cards, drawing satanic symbols on 
themselves or property and wearing black clothing. As they say 
in the X-FIles -- "THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE."


> Remember that the "mystery" in "mystery religions", as I said 
>earlier,  refers only to the "central mysteries", which *all* 
>religions have.  "Hidden" has NO NEGATIVE CONNOTATIONS. 
>I can't stress that enough. If  members of a religion are 
>systematically hounded, tortured, murdered and  worse (Salem 
>Witch Trials, anyone?) simply because of their beliefs,  
>becoming "hidden" or "occult" is really rather a rational 
>response. So, witchcraft and Paganism quietly got on with their 
>practices and didn't tell  anyone lest they try to burn them at the 
>stake (again).  Again, I hope your book doesn't show this lack of 
>research.

ANSWER: My gosh, where do you get your information? Go read 
som ereal history rather than materials generated by pagan 
organizations and Wiccans who revise history in order to fit their 
needs today as 21st century neo-pagans I would ask that people 
on this board simply go do some non-fiction reading (history) to 
get the straight scoop on the above.


>Depends what you mean by the word "natural". As 
>nature-based religions, Paganism is totally natural by 
>definition. And could you define what you mean by a "channel of 
>knowledge"?

ANSWER: The 5 senses and other means of knowledge 
obtaining (talking, reading, thinking, etc.).


>I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "divination techniques";
> could you clarify?

ANSWER: You are a pagan? And you do not know techniques of 
divination???? Now you are playing games. That's like a football 
player saying he doesn't know what the words offense and 
defense mean. PA-leese.


> You might want to do some more research and perhaps make 
changes in the next  edition of your book.

ANSWER:  LOL. You kill me.



> Yes, they do know, don't they. And what does the word in 
question mean? "Poisoner", not "Witch". Sure, *that's* a reason 
to burn little old ladies with cats at the stake, throw them into 
ponds, ad nauseum ad infinitum...\

ANSWER: Ok ok ok, here we go, witch trials witch trials, blah 
blah blah blah blah. First, the whole "poisoner" argument, pulled 
from works by witch Doreen Valiente (see "An ABC of Witchcraft") 
is just plain ignorant. The passage by the way about which you 
speak is Exodus 22:18. Anyway, the Hebrew word translated as 
witch is mekashshepa, and it was used in the Old Testament to 
refer to anyone who used magic/sorcery. Thus, the term would 
apply to all occultists, including contemporary witches. Moreover, 
in OTHER places in the Old Testament, this same word is used 
in context of occult practices, not poisoning (Ex. 7:11; Deut. 
18:10; 2 Chron. 33:6; Mal. 3:5). Second, regarding the witch 
hunts, give it a break. If yuo would read history, most of the ones 
who were burned  were actually CHRISTIANS!!! Hello. Sorry, to 
burst your bubble. But the charges were often leveled against the 
helpless, homeless, or others who had ticked off a neighbor. 
And the bunred ones never admitted their witchcraft due to 
personal beliefs in God. Also, the witch trials held by 
corrupt-paranoid Christan courts a short period of time in 
America and was isolated to a small settlement in new England. 
Nothinig was going on in nearby towns, which indicates 
something social-cultural was occuring in this one settlement. In 
Europe, a lot of the murders were done via political institutions. 
The burnings had nothing to do with real religious beliefs. You've 
been reading too much Wiccan propaganda and not enough 
history.

 
> Rubbish! "This is a COMPLETE misrepresentation of the 
points in the book, and it is difficult to understand how 
"RICHARD" could have misunderstood." The Divination class 
and all its acts are not presented in a positive light. They're 
presented as a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, to the extent  that 
Hermione, the most academic and sensible character we see, 
actually *leaves* the class because it's not worthwhile. The only 
reason Harry takes Divination . . . .

ANSWER: Oh, so now we suddenly know what divination is????


>is that Ron is doing so. I suspect the only reason Ron is doing 
>so is because it's an easy grade. The two boys are unable to 
>follow Hermione's lead in leaving because they are not taking 
>any extra classes which would let them replace it.
    
ANSWER: Interesting argument around teh facts. What about 
Bane and Fiorenza as star-gazers (read: astrologers)? What 
about Madame Trelawney's real channeling / mediumship 
prophecy that comes true? What about Hermione doing so well 
in spells, charms, herbology, numerology, arithmancy? You have 
a nice way of selecting snippets of info to back your arguments, 
but that is hardly intellectually honest.



> Moreover, the fictional/mythological acts described by JKR are 
>nothing more than stage magic, as opposed to occult 
>practices. You cannot read tea leaves as Trelawney does, nor 
>does her way of gazing into a crystal ball work. I honestly can't 
>remember any numerology in the books (unless you're talking 
>about Harry and Ron making up Divination homework), and the 
>"channeling"presented in the book has n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with 
"real life" channeling.

ANSWER: Rowling herself says that she studied magic, 
occultism, and Witchcraft in order to write the books and that up 
to 1/3 of what she has in her books is real. Sorry. Regarding the 
channelling, Trelawney's prophetic episode is CLASSIC 
spiritism and mediumship. Again, sorry.


> Believe me, I've seen it done.
     
ANSWER: So have I. Also, I would say it is a bit closer to 
spiritism mediumship of the early 20th century, but channeling is 
simply an up-dated form of this for a yuppie crowd.


> Again, I find myself thinking that your research is flawed and 
wondering just how thoroughly you read the four books 

ANSWER______ Apparently more thoroughly than you. Oh well.


> Anybody interested in learning more about "the occult", Wicca, 
Witchcraft or Paganism should head on over to the excellent 
"Witch's Voice" at www.witchvox.net

ANSWER: Ahhh. The altar call for converts. Enjoyed our 
exchange.

RIchard Abanes