[HPforGrownups] Abanes Answers Witch

Tue Apr 24 19:55:10 UTC 2001

No: HPFGUIDX 17579

Okay... delurk post! I'm Cait, I'm new, and... wasn't going to get involved 
with this thread... oops. Replies cut and pasted, sorry if I've got them out 
of order.

Mr Abanes wrote:
>1. Harry and indeed all the so-called good characters CHEAT
>throughout the Tri-Wizard tournament. Interestingly, if Harry
>would have had some integrity, and not cheated like everyone
>else, he probably would have lost and Cedric would still be alive.
>2. Harry not only helps Hagrid break the restrictions he is under
>per Dumbledore, but also helps Hagrid break Wizard Laws
>against illegal pets.
>3. Harry consistently breaks school rules and lies to, well, just
>about everyone whnever it is convenient. As Dumbledore so
>beautifully articulates, "[T]he truth is GENERALLY preferrable to
>lies (4:722). Generally???? Now that's a good lesson for my kid.

    Then I'd firstly recommend that you not allow YOUR kid to read the 
books. But I'd disagree with you that the truth is always better, because it 
isn't. By the time most kids are reading, they're begining to learn about 
social lies ("Thank you so much for the sweater, grandma!" vs. "Thanks for 
nothing, you mean old lady- I asked for a radio-controlled car and you got 
me a sweater.") While Harry *does* lie, he doesn't get away with it nearly 
all the time, and, when pressed about it, tells the truth. He gets in 
trouble for telling the truth, which is a very real concept. The admirable

I have a serious issue with the fact that people tell little children "You 
won't get in trouble if you tell the truth." This simply isn't true- if you 
broke Mom's favorite vase to be spiteful, you're going to get into trouble 
if you tell her about it right off or if you lie and say the cat knocked it 
off the shelf and admit it later- the difference is only in your own 
integrity and perhaps in the punishment.

The admirable thing about Harry is, he accepts the consequences of his 
words. Whether that's expected by the bible or not, it *is* an admirable 
trait.

> > Show me documentary evidence, by a *respected* source
> >(this would exclude  Bob Jones University and its ilk, by the
> >way). Not *one* child who has had  links to Paganism or the
> >occult (see below for definition) has ever killed  anybody or even
> >participated in any of the recent teen violence across the  US --
> >it's completely contrary to the tenets of Paganism. (Here, in
> >Paganism, I'm referring to many different Earth Religion paths.)
> >Perhaps you should have done some more research before
> >making statements  like that. Hope your book's not the same.
>
>ANSWER: Oh dear, you do have your head in the sand, don't you.
>Since I don't hav ethe time to list the hundreds of examples
>available. I suggest that you simply go to a search engine and
>enter phrases/words like "occult, murder" or "vampire cult" or
>"teens murder occult" -- you'll get all the examples you need.
>Wake up. Oh, by the way, Sean Sellers, executed on Feb. 4, 1999
>was a practicing occultist when he brutally murdered 3 people,
>including his parents in 1986. Also, occult involvement actually
>has indeed been identified as one of the warning signs of
>potential violence in a child, according to psychologist Reid
>Kimbrough of The justice Center, a Nashville-based organization
>that conducts seminars nationwide for law enforcement
>personnel and educators relative to youth and school violence.
>Also Norvin Richard, chairman of the Philosophy Department at
>University of Alabama says the same thing. (You asked for only
>ONE source, but here are two. Use Internet search engines for
>more).  Kimbrough, who since 1997 has been teaching his
>"Children at High Risk for Violent Behavior" course, says occult
>involvement includes a student listening to music which has
>death or suicide in its lyrics, possessing paraphernalia such as
>skulls, black candles or a satanic bible, preoccupation with a
>Ouija board or tarot cards, drawing satanic symbols on
>themselves or property and wearing black clothing. As they say
>in the X-FIles -- "THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE."

It's worth pointing out that searching for occult and murder is going to 
bring back EXACTLY what you told it to- reports about the occult and murder. 
The Sean Sellers case is very old, and again, both of the sources you 
quoted, while not as rabid as Bob Jones, etc, are still biased.

> > Remember that the "mystery" in "mystery religions", as I said
> >earlier,  refers only to the "central mysteries", which *all*
> >religions have.  "Hidden" has NO NEGATIVE CONNOTATIONS.
> >I can't stress that enough. If  members of a religion are
> >systematically hounded, tortured, murdered and  worse (Salem
> >Witch Trials, anyone?) simply because of their beliefs,
> >becoming "hidden" or "occult" is really rather a rational
> >response. So, witchcraft and Paganism quietly got on with their
> >practices and didn't tell  anyone lest they try to burn them at the
> >stake (again).  Again, I hope your book doesn't show this lack of
> >research.
>
>ANSWER: My gosh, where do you get your information? Go read
>som ereal history rather than materials generated by pagan
>organizations and Wiccans who revise history in order to fit their
>needs today as 21st century neo-pagans I would ask that people
>on this board simply go do some non-fiction reading (history) to
>get the straight scoop on the above.

What type of real history are you looking for? The Roman Empire, post 
Constantine, had severe penelties for being other than Christian, IIRC. Most 
religions other than Christianity were in medieval Europe, including 
Judaism. ("sustened by a lord of that contree / For foule usure and lucre of 
vileyne, / Hateful to Christ and to his compaignye."- the Prioress's Tale, 
Chaucer. Don't have a page number, this is from an e-text copy.)Much of 
western history has been marked by SEVERE intolerence of anyone different- 
not just witches/pagans/wiccans/whathaveyou.  In your defense, I'll admit 
that the SWT have little to nothing to do with paganism- I've never read a 
source that can point to any of the persecuted there being other than 
Christian.

> >Depends what you mean by the word "natural". As
> >nature-based religions, Paganism is totally natural by
> >definition. And could you define what you mean by a "channel of
> >knowledge"?
>
>ANSWER: The 5 senses and other means of knowledge
>obtaining (talking, reading, thinking, etc.).
>
> >I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "divination techniques";
> > could you clarify?
>
>ANSWER: You are a pagan? And you do not know techniques of
>divination???? Now you are playing games. That's like a football
>player saying he doesn't know what the words offense and
>defense mean. PA-leese.

Actually, many pagans *aren't* involved with divination. We don't all use 
it. I know any number of Christians who haven't got an idea of what saints 
are supposed to do. Also, as you most assuredly aren't pagan yourself, 
(Goddess forbid, I don't think we want you-) how did you come by this 
information?

> > You might want to do some more research and perhaps make
>changes in the next  edition of your book.
>
>ANSWER:  LOL. You kill me.

>
>
> > Yes, they do know, don't they. And what does the word in
>question mean? "Poisoner", not "Witch". Sure, *that's* a reason
>to burn little old ladies with cats at the stake, throw them into
>ponds, ad nauseum ad infinitum...\
>
>ANSWER: Ok ok ok, here we go, witch trials witch trials, blah
>blah blah blah blah. First, the whole "poisoner" argument, pulled
>from works by witch Doreen Valiente (see "An ABC of Witchcraft")
>is just plain ignorant. The passage by the way about which you
>speak is Exodus 22:18. Anyway, the Hebrew word translated as
>witch is mekashshepa, and it was used in the Old Testament to
>refer to anyone who used magic/sorcery. Thus, the term would
>apply to all occultists, including contemporary witches. Moreover,
>in OTHER places in the Old Testament, this same word is used
>in context of occult practices, not poisoning (Ex. 7:11; Deut.
>18:10; 2 Chron. 33:6; Mal. 3:5). Second, regarding the witch

<snipped here for relevence> Actually, there's equal arguments that it meant 
poisoner. Witch hunts were a seriously touchy thing when the King James 
Bible translation was published.

>hunts, give it a break. If yuo would read history, most of the ones
>who were burned  were actually CHRISTIANS!!! Hello. Sorry, to
>burst your bubble. But the charges were often leveled against the
>helpless, homeless, or others who had ticked off a neighbor.
>And the bunred ones never admitted their witchcraft due to
>personal beliefs in God.

Worth a note here- all of the ones in the US were homeowners, although some 
were unconventional- Rebecca Nurse is the best example of that. "The Devil 
in Massachusetts" quotes a journal from a contemporary (I'm sorry, all my 
books are still boxed up from the move) as noting her suspicous due to her 
wearing pants.

>Also, the witch trials held by
>corrupt-paranoid Christan courts a short period of time in
>America and was isolated to a small settlement in new England.
>Nothinig was going on in nearby towns, which indicates
>something social-cultural was occuring in this one settlement. In
>Europe, a lot of the murders were done via political institutions.
>The burnings had nothing to do with real religious beliefs. You've
>been reading too much Wiccan propaganda and not enough
>history.

Again. He has a point with the witch burnings in America, but we'll never 
know true numbers on the thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions 
(sources disagree on the numbers, and I really don't feel like even STARTING 
that argument today) persecuted during the witch trials, or the truth about 
them. Some of them confessed, some didn't, and, under torture like that, 
even the confessed ones' words are very suspect, I would think.

I also don't think it's fair to call the Inquisition a political 
institution, unless you'd like to call the entire medieval church the same. 
If the burnings had nothing to do with real religious beliefs, why on EARTH 
did they take place? The basis of Christian belief is the Bible, and the 
Bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill." Reconcile those, please.

> > Rubbish! "This is a COMPLETE misrepresentation of the
>points in the book, and it is difficult to understand how
>"RICHARD" could have misunderstood." The Divination class
>and all its acts are not presented in a positive light. They're
>presented as a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, to the extent  that
>Hermione, the most academic and sensible character we see,
>actually *leaves* the class because it's not worthwhile. The only
>reason Harry takes Divination . . . .
>
>ANSWER: Oh, so now we suddenly know what divination is????

If that's the best argument you can come up with, far be it from me to 
reply.

> >is that Ron is doing so. I suspect the only reason Ron is doing
> >so is because it's an easy grade. The two boys are unable to
> >follow Hermione's lead in leaving because they are not taking
> >any extra classes which would let them replace it.
>
>ANSWER: Interesting argument around teh facts. What about
>Bane and Fiorenza as star-gazers (read: astrologers)? What
>about Madame Trelawney's real channeling / mediumship
>prophecy that comes true? What about Hermione doing so well
>in spells, charms, herbology, numerology, arithmancy? You have
>a nice way of selecting snippets of info to back your arguments,
>but that is hardly intellectually honest.

Neither are you, buster. Astronomers would also count as star-gazers. (If 
not, don't tell my friend the Astronomy major- that's her email!) Hermione's 
academic sucess has little or no bearing on the divination issue, which is 
what I thought we were talking about.

> > Moreover, the fictional/mythological acts described by JKR are
> >nothing more than stage magic, as opposed to occult
> >practices. You cannot read tea leaves as Trelawney does, nor
> >does her way of gazing into a crystal ball work. I honestly can't
> >remember any numerology in the books (unless you're talking
> >about Harry and Ron making up Divination homework), and the
> >"channeling"presented in the book has n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with
>"real life" channeling.
>
>ANSWER: Rowling herself says that she studied magic,
>occultism, and Witchcraft in order to write the books and that up
>to 1/3 of what she has in her books is real. Sorry. Regarding the
>channelling, Trelawney's prophetic episode is CLASSIC
>spiritism and mediumship. Again, sorry.

Yup. Classic in the vein of Victorian stage acts and vaudville theatre.

> > Believe me, I've seen it done.
>
>ANSWER: So have I. Also, I would say it is a bit closer to
>spiritism mediumship of the early 20th century, but channeling is
>simply an up-dated form of this for a yuppie crowd.

> > Again, I find myself thinking that your research is flawed and
>wondering just how thoroughly you read the four books
>
>ANSWER______ Apparently more thoroughly than you. Oh well.
>
>
> > Anybody interested in learning more about "the occult", Wicca,
>Witchcraft or Paganism should head on over to the excellent
>"Witch's Voice" at www.witchvox.net
>
>ANSWER: Ahhh. The altar call for converts. Enjoyed our
>exchange.

This is the bit that got me mad, guy. Here's WitchVox's mission statement, 
taken directly from their webpage:

"Mission Statement: The Witches' Voice is a proactive educational network 
dedicated to correcting misinformation about Witches and Witchcraft. 
Witchcraft - Wicca IS a legally recognized religion in the United States and 
it is our mission to protect that right through education and awareness.

It is our belief that Witches are givers and healers! By keeping abreast of 
the latest news and updated information, as well as having ready access to 
critical resource tools, we, as Witches and Pagans, can not only empower 
ourselves, but develop programs to educate our local towns and cities on who 
we are and what we do."

Have a nice day!
Cait Hunter

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