Insanely long and detailed reply (was Relationship between the Muggle & the Wizarding World)

[Amanda Lewanski]

No: HPFGUIDX 24179

"Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" wrote:

> I am still quite perplexed by the entire premise of JKR's books.
> Granted, I know that they are fantasy and all, but still,
> realistically I still have a lot of unsettling doubts.

Welcome to our world <grins>.

> But, here it's only ONE family... I don't understand
> how an entire POPULATION, an entire WORLD, can manage to always,
> always, keep their existence a secret.

I interpret this as meaning that the vast majority of Muggles either
don't notice or don't process what they perceive correctly. Have you
read the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" series? The wizarding world
is protected by some spells, sure, but mostly because it has the
equivalent of this giant SEP field (Somebody Else's Problem). People
might see it, but they just don't *see* it, and if they do and are
interested, they're likely to be the kind who'd know about it anyway.

> Don't they EVER have to go out in the 'real' world for some thing or
> other?

Yeah, every so often, I imagine, but those who have to dress like
Muggles. Hence McGonagall's disgusted complaint to Dumbledore at the
start of book 1, that people were out in broad daylight dressed in
wizard clothing.

> Do they  live in exclusive villages like Hogsmeade,

Nope, that's supposed to be the only all-wizarding community (in
England? where? Steve?)

> or if they're scattered around London, etc., don't the
> Muggles notice them?

No, because their residences and hang-out places are hidden. The Muggles
can see the storefront of the Leaky Cauldron, but as what happens with
Harry, there's a spell on it that makes them just not notice it (Harry
didn't really notice it until he and Hagrid started to go in, as I
recall). The Cauldron is an outlet to an arm of the wizarding world,
Diagon Alley, but the Alley and environs is only accessible by magic,
out behind the Cauldron. There's no way a Muggle would notice that.

> Do you mean to tell me, that the big government of
> England, for instance, has never noticed this huge unusual population?

Why should they? They don't pay taxes, they don't claim the dole, they
don't attend public school, they don't do any of the usual things that
make people need to be noticed by the government. With the exception of
the Prime Minister (and possibly a few other need-to-know higher-ups),
the government has no reason to be aware of their existence. It's
strongly intimated that wizarding efforts assisted in WWII, as well, but
I bet that doesn't show up in Muggle history books.

> Isnt' there a census or something? Doesn't every citizen have to pay
> taxes or whatever?

For what? Upkeep on roads they don't use? Upkeep on an electrical grid
they don't use? Upkeep on schools they don't attend? Paying the taxes
doesn't make you a citizen; birth does, and they are wizarding citizens,
known about by only the highest levels of the Muggle government, and
allowed a fair amount of autonomy (much like the American Indians on
some [all?] reservations are allowed their own governments [shaky
analogy, not real clear on details here, but broadly true]).

> You can't just be a 'non-entity'. You exist, and you
> live in this world, and people are bound to notice you. They are not
> entirely invisible.

People do notice them. But they're wizarding people. I have an analogy
for you that might help. I belong to a medieval recreation group, the
SCA. There's about 25,000 members (big ballpark, it's been a while since
I paid attention to membership stats). It began with a backyard event in
1966 in (where else?) California, and has spread all over the US, to
Norway, Germany, the UK, and an aircraft carrier (again, as of the last
time I paid attention). We do weekend "events" ranging from medieval
feasts in church halls, to fighter practices in parks, large tournament
events that last a week (Pennsic War, up by Pennsylvania, where several
kingdoms fight and the loser gets Pittsburgh, is in its second decade,
lasts ten days, and attracts upwards of a couple thousand each year),
local demos for schools, libraries, etc., and you get the idea. I have
walked into many a local convenience store in full Elizabethan or
early-period garb to buy my Dr. Pepper or cheese or whatever, and
answered the inevitable "are you in a play?" questions. We are many, and
a full subculture, and are covered by the news on a fairly regular basis
as a filler or local color. I know people whose whole livelihood is the
SCA--armorers, jewelers, crossbow makers, etc.

The point I am making is that the SCA isn't even *trying* to hide, yet
most people are totally ignorant of us. We use public areas, fill out
forms, file non-profit tax stuff, greet those who come up to ask what
we're doing, and don't have the ability to escape the mundane world by
magically hiding. Mine is a flamboyant, vibrant, colorful, oddly dressed
and oddly speaking bunch of people, readily noticed, and yet very little
known. Imagine how much easier for the wizarding world to escape notice,
when they can hide themselves magically and when most of those who see
them will simply assume they're in a play, never asking.

> The government of England would know if a 'village'
> of such exists, and if they live mixed, then they are certainly due to
> pay taxes or whatever.

So they may. What would be special about the tax return from Lily and
James Potter of Godric's Hollow, that would call extra attention to
them?

> And then again their are fire inspections and
> other government - related things you can't wiggle out of.

Sure you can. You have a very Big-Brother view of the government.

> It smacks extremely unrealistic and improbable that the wizarding
> existence is totally unnoticed.

It's not totally unnoticed. It's just that when it is noticed, it's
either not registered by the viewer for what it really is, Memory
Charmed, or noticed by those that already know.

> All it takes is one person to discover it, which leads
> to one magazine article describing it, which leads to one television
> special, and the secrt is out!

Yeah, just imagine what would happen if someone found out and tried to
report it! Yeesh! I imagine the Star or the National Enquirer would pick
it up immediately. The person might also get invited to reputable talk
shows like Jerry Springer, to tell their story next to the UFO-abductee.
People would just panic in the streets.

> Now, the Wizards do not have electricity. but they do have plumbing.

Much like the ancient Romans.

> (Btw, how do they wash their laundry without wash machines?)

Much like the ancient Romans. Or like my husband's mother, for that
matter. You young thing, did you ever hear of a washboard? Or wonder
what the washerwomen were *doing* in Little Mermaid, bumping Sebastian
in the cloth down that ribby board? But then again, we *are* talking
wizards, here; I imagine there's garden variety cleaning spells, that
*do* require water but do not require a machine.

> And let's say their toilet breaks down. Do they have their 'own'
> plumbers, so that they don't have to call the Muggle plumbers, etc.?

Probably. The wizarding world in general seems a bit more
self-sufficient than most of the Muggles I know (self included), because
most of us don't really know how our doodads work, but most wizards have
a broad enough range of broadly applicable spells to do a fix-it on most
of the things in their world. I'll also point out that pipes lined with
a non-stick, non-plug spell probably don't have as many problems as
ours....

> And when something like this DOES happen, since the Wizards are
> totally inept in anything Muggle-related, won't their existence
> suddenly be crystal clear?

No, because there's no evidence that I can think of that their stuff is
Muggle in origin. If they see Muggle stuff, they copy or adapt it, they
don't go and get the Muggle variety. I doubt their toilets come from
Home Depot, or at least that they get installed un-spelled.

> Say for instance, that a nosy neighbor, or a meter reader, or a survey
> taker, knocks on their door.

Having made it through the Muggle-repelling charms?

> Doesn't a Muggle knocking on a Wizard's door, notice that this house
> is somehow different? No electricity, no lights?

Are they knocking at night? I've knocked on plenty of doors at dark
houses, think they were wizards? Are they coming in to use the bathroom,
and noticing odd things about the toilet? I don't think most people
would notice; this sort of "background" stuff is often painted mentally,
without ever having been seen--this is the sort of thing your own brain
does every day, when it "covers" the blind spot on your retina where the
optic nerve comes in with visual images drawn from the surrounding
imagery. It takes real effort to "see" that blind spot, I can't even
remember how--but the point here is, in the Rock Man's words to Oblio
(from Nilsson's "The Point"): "You see what you want to see, and you
hear what you want to hear." Most Muggles aren't looking and wouldn't
*see* it if they did see it.

> How does a Wizard deal with a Muggle, when it comes to it, if he is so
> inept in Muggle things?

He's not inept at Muggle language; he can talk to him. What other sorts
of "dealing with" are we talking about?

> Why, if there are Muggle studies in school, dont'
> we ever read about them?

Because I think they're put in for our amusement, that things we think
of as so normal and unlivable-without are the object of arcane studies,
anywhere, much less right in our own backyard.

> Why is Arthur so excited about 'eklectricity' --
> don't they learn about it in Muggle studies?

Sure, they probably learn the theory. I learned about catapults, Viking
longships, and oral-formulaic poetry in medieval studies. But *damn,*
it's exciting to see a REAL longship! Just like they used! And my
professor saw the REAL THING in Norway! We saw the PICTURES, it was SO
COOL, he was right there and could TOUCH it (although you weren't
supposed to). And I LOVED the Nova special about the guys who built the
big catapults to see if they could really knock down castle walls, I was
glued to the set, even though it meant I got only five hours sleep. And
although I know the theory of oral-formulaics, I can't do it, but I was
spellbound by the one person I know who can, even haltingly. All of
these things and more I learned loads about in class. Seeing the
actuality was thrilling beyond words.

> Do these Wizards think they're so smart, knowing curses and potions
> and charms, when they know absolutely zero about the world around them
> -- biology, science, technology, etc.?

No, they know quite a bit about the world around them. Their world is
the wizarding world, involving dangerous magical creatures and whole
realms of information we would not know how to deal with or process.
They know their world, and have no need of ours, and vice versa. Much
like what would happen if you took a New York City native and dropped
him in the Australian outback, and vice versa. Both individuals might be
*very* smart and very saavy of their native worlds and surroundings;
both would be totally lost in their new environs, and might not survive.

> Also, I dont' think it's legal to live with a telephone.

I assume you mean without. And yes, it is, I did for several years while
I was at college.

> How, can the Wizards contact an ambulance, policeman, or fireman in
> case of an emergency?

Why would they call Muggles? They'd call the appropriate MoM official,
and they'd contact them by a wizarding means.

> Do they even HAVE an emergency squad? Or are wizards so
> magical that they can worm their way out of any emergency -- fire,
> burglary, and illness?

Probably. Their emergencies are not likely to be the kind that Muggle
emergency personnel can handle--splinching, for instance.

> What if Ginny Weasley went to buy a new dress robe, and couldn't
> decide which color. She can't owl her mother and wait two days in the
> store for an answer!

Well, if I were Ginny, or was back at college with no phone, I'd either
(a) bite the bullet and decide, or (b) ask the lady to hold both until I
could get Mom's input, or (c) do without.

> Why dont they have cell phones or public phones or something? Even the
> Amish have public phones!

What do they *need* them for? You have this tremendous dependence on an
infrastructure that is really quite superfluous. People living in the
hills, survivalists, Amish, other religious groups, etc., have managed
quite well without modern "necessities." I imagine the Amish have public
phones because they have unbent enough to want to be able to tap the
very Muggle emergencies you name, and I imagine the wizards don't have
them because they have their own ways of handling their own emergencies.

> Don't the Wizards ever have to come in contact with Muggles for
> survival? And when they do, they are totally unprepared. Look what
> happened at the world cup -- Arthur couldn't even count money.

Yeah, and they Memory Charmed Mr. Forgot-His-Name, too. You can probably
count on one hand the number of times Arthur will ever have to deal with
Muggle money. Paying for lodging at the World Cup was hardly necessary
to survival, either (unless you're more of a die-hard Quidditch fan than
Arthur).

> When they have to travel, what to they do? How does Charlie come in
> from Egypt all the time?

It's a bit far to Apparate; he may fly, or it's entirely reasonable to
think that there's other means of wizarding travel that we wot not of
(yet).

> Flying broomsticks all the way to Egypt? They DO take the train,
> though -- the Hogwarts Express. If they walk around dressed up in
> robes on the street all the time, aren't they immediately visible?

They don't; see reference to McGonagall's disgusted comment, above.

> Are they all in Muggle clothing when they go to the train station?

Yes. They change on the train. And the Hogwarts express is the only
train mentioned that is ridden regularly, so far. The rest probably Floo
or Apparate to work.

> Don't the people working at the railway station notice something
> weird?

Yes. Harry gets odd looks because he has Hedwig in a cage, more than
once. But again, that "Somebody Else's Problem" field kicks in, and most
people do little more than give them a strange look and then dismiss
them from their thoughts because they don't fit the mental mold
anywhere.

> How do Wizards manage to marry Muggles if the Muggle world is so
> foreign and even contemptuous to Wizards?

I imagine some Wizards do go into the Muggle world fairly frequently; we
don't actually know the jobs or habits of very many--and meet their
mates that way. Or perhaps a wizard notices a Muggle that *does* see
something, and gets a gleam rather than a glaze--I imagine it takes a
pretty special sort of Muggle to marry a wizard.

> What if the Wizard cant convince the Muggle what a lovely world
> Wizarding is, and the Muggle insists on using
> microwave ovens and watching television even though she is married to
> a wizard?

Then they probably have an electric bill and file tax forms. So?

> Does a muggle married to a wizard sever all her ties with her old
> world, so as not to betray the secrets of her spouse?

I guess it depends on the marriage. My best Catholic friend married a
Jew, and didn't convert, although her children will be raised Jewish. I,
raised Methodist, married a cradle Catholic and *did* convert. Whatever
works, so long as the "cover" is maintained. The Muggle families of
Hogwarts students "know," too, and do not reveal it (or have guest spots
on Jerry Springer, see above).

> Look at Lily Potter for instance -- her sister knew full well she was
> a witch. Did Lily have to sever all ties with her friends and mother
> etcetra, because she now
> belonged to this 'other' world?

Sounded more like Petunia was only too happy to sever things on her end.

> What about people like Hermione's parents? How much do they know of
> what wizarding is? What does it feel
> like for Hermione to walk back into a Muggle home at the end of term,
> with the computers and Nintendos when she is a Wizard in training and
> possesses 'different' powers?

Probably pretty cool. Like going back to the old house you grew up in,
familiar but not where you live now.

> What if a wizard marries a muggle and the muggle life is so enticing,
> he decides to leave the wizarding world and
> become a muggle?

I guess he goes and gets the UK equivalent of a Social Security Number
and finds a job.

> Doesnt he take all the secrets with him - -and can
> expose them to the world in one instant?

Yes. He'd take all his knowledge with him (and good thing, too, since
his kids are likely to get invited to Hogwarts). And he'd keep his mouth
shut, or he'd be dealt with by MoM officials, or have a guest shot on
the Springer show ("wow, did you catch that guy? That stuff he did
looked almost *real,* it's amazing what they can do with effects these
days!")....wonder if the special effects industry is due to just this
phenomenon....?

> Additionally, I don't know how the Muggle kids survive without the
> electronic pastimes out kids can't be without. No TV. No movies. No
> computers. No electronic games. No Nintendo. It is highly unrealistic
> to expect all of the Wizarding kiddies to sit and read or play card
> games
> all day. What a highly boring life. Why would a child want to have
> such a life when there is such an exciting electronic life out there?

How old *are* you, dear? This is a ridiculous statement. Nobody ever
died of boredom before these things were invented. Children sit and read
and played games, or they had jobs or chores to do, or they pursued
hobbies. Have you never heard of what many families do now, National
Turn It Off or something, where families try to do family activities
instead of gravitate to the TV? Honest, people had interesting, full
lives even before 1950.

> Another question that perturbs me is the apparent pride of being
> wizard, and the knocking down of the Muggles. It smacks reminiscent of
> the Third Reich-- WE are the master race, and THEY, are just lowly
> Muggles.

Verboten. Bad topic. Unallowed. But this is what all in-groups do, what
loud Texans do, what obnoxious New Yorkers do, what benighted Iowans do,
what inbred Britishers do---the tribal Us Good Them Bad thing. A small
community almost requires that, to keep its integrity in the face of
being overwhelmed. This sort of pride and identification is what keeps
some linguistic dialects going in the face of all kinds of other
influences.

> Mind you, there are several billion muggles living in this world, and
> only a few thousand Wizards who are not known, and hardly know each
> other.

Yeah? So? They breed faster. There are several gazillion insects living
in this world, and only several billion humans, who hardly know each
other. This makes the insects automatically better? Virtue through
biomass?

> Another question I have, is how they manage to support themselves with
> only magical jobs. There are only so many people who can work for the
> Ministry, and only so many people who can have shops in Hogsmeade.

Well, a large part of income and supporting oneself is to pay for the
things you say we can't do without. Since the wizards do without quite
nicely, the amount they'd need to support themselves would be smaller on
the face of it. And while we haven't been shown a lot of it, there's
clearly a wizarding economy operating full-steam making things like
Bertie Botts beans, Golden Snitches, broomstics, self-threading needles,
odd clocks, etc.

> What if someone wants to be a doctor? A lawyer? A scientist? There are
> no schools of that sort in the Wizarding World, are there?

No, but I bet there are spells. Madam Pomfrey is a healer. There's
lawyer-types working for MoM. Nicolas Flamel, alchemist, and Dumbledore,
his associate, and the developer of the Wolfsbane potion, all are pretty
much scientists in my book. Any more?

> What happens when a witch gives birth?

She has a baby? Seriously, there's got to be pain charms and such.
Pomfrey has handled so much more serious things than what can happen in
a birth! I imagine the wizarding world still uses midwives, skilled at
healing spells specifically for birthing.

> Goes only to the St. Mungo hospital? Never to the
> Muggle hospital?

Why?

> About schooling -- I don't understand why such simple subjects such as
> making objects fly and flying on brooms are only taught at age eleven.
> what did the kids do until then? Went to regular Muggle school?

We've had loads of discourse on this, with the consensus being that
children are homeschooled the basics of reading and writing, and pick up
some magical theory (how could you avoid it?), but the formal magical
training begins at Hogwarts.

> Ginny was a teeny kid when Charlie was already disapparating and her
> father was traveling by Floo Powder. Do you mean to say that she didnt
> catch on to any of the spells and charms her family was using? She had
> to stay in chains and wait eleven years to start training to live the
> life her
> family lives every day?

My daughter is a teeny kid, and sees her father and me driving our cars
every day. And we keep her in chains and fully intend to make her wait
eleven more years to live the life we live every day. She also sees us
drink wine, and knows we watch movies she's not allowed to see yet, and
knows (alas) quite a few words which are "grown-up" words which she is
not allowed to say. Poor mistreated thing.

> Also, what can be taught in seven full years already? don't these
> teachers run out of materials? How many potions,
> magical creatures, curses, spells, charms and potions can they come up
> with? I think this can all be taught in two or three years.

Have you been to college yet? I took six years to finish my
undergraduate, and can think of several masters' degrees I'd like, just
at UT Austin alone--Medieval Studies, English Language and Linguistics,
Marketing, Business Managment, Germanic Studies, etc. There's loads of
specializations in the wizarding world, and Hogwarts is all there
is--much like a hundred years ago, when the most important naturalists
were self-taught and self-motivated. Seven years to get a grounding in
everything, that is supposed to give me the basis for everything else
(unless I do my own researches privately), is actually quite a short
time.

> SEVEN years worth of learning material? And what are they learning?
> Just to be THEMSELVES? Just to learn to be a wizard -- as opposed to
> WHAT?

No, how to use their abilities. My brothers are professional musicians.
They've spent years training and honing their natural, innate talent. I
share their talent, but I never developed it. I can't do half the things
they can, not a quarter. I can't play the instruments they can, I can't
sing with the control and projection, etc. Having an innate talent is
*not* the same as knowing how to use it or developing it.

> As opposed to being a muggle? They know NOTHING about muggles! Isn't
> the wizarding life, the life they are living every day? They have to
> LEARN about it -- ad nauseum, ad infinitum?

Jeez, I'm a mother by virtue of a couple fun nights and (cumulatively)
27 months of pregnancy, but I have to learn about it every damned day,
and still am. You are not automatically good at being what you are.

> The very base of the idea of the Wizarding World perturbs me.

Clearly.

> I don't quite understand how the relationship between the  Wizarding
> and the Muggle world works itself out.

Easiest answer--it just does. Overanalyzing (a LOON writing this, yet!)
often robs the matter of its charm. Bottom line, it works because we
want it to work.

> I have so many questions. These are just half of them. I will write
> more later. I hope this sparks a lively
> discussion.

Well, a long one. Wonder if anyone got this far? Ten points to your
Houses, diehards.

Luv'n'kisses,
Amanda


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