SHIP: R/H: Muddying the pool -- Fanfic vs. Canon (More)

[Penny & Bryce]

No: HPFGUIDX 31360

Hi everyone --

davewitley wrote:


  They have been developing a shared assumption of
> exclusivity (with, admittedly, Harry's position in the relationship
> very undefined - to a degree they battle to be the one he listens
> to), so when she accepts Krum's invitation to the ball, Ron can see
> it as the violation of a tacit, even subliminal, agreement.  No
> wonder the lad can't find a legitimate expression of his plaint, and
> switches from one lame accusation to another.

Can I ask for some greater canonical proof of this tacit understanding? 
  I'm sorry, but I just don't see this, particularly the part about 
Harry's part in their relationship being undefined.  How is that 
exactly?  We don't see Ron & Hermione interacting without Harry .... 
well other than the time that he notes that he's trying to escape their 
unpleasant sniping at one another by taking refuge in the owlery. <g>

> 
> Of course (I say just to wind you all up), there are further
> developments *after* the ball which show a burgeoning sense of true
> responsibility on both sides - and a continuing attraction.  But
> that's for another post.

I'll anxiously await that post, David.  <g>

In a separate post:

I had written:

> >> When the shippers have parsed & argued their way through all
> available evidence about Hermione's feelings, it has become evident to all
>> involved that there's no clear answer.  There is arguable evidence
> that she does return Ron's budding interest.  There is also *just as
> much* arguable evidence that she has interest in Harry.  Most shippers
> choose to accent the evidence that favors their preference.

David responded with:

> 
> Hegel would spin in his grave, if he wasn't busy cracking jokes with
> the Fat Friar.  This is a ceasefire, not a resolution.  What we need
> to do now is pull together Gwen's and others' thoughts on how we
> develop an understanding that is *uniquely* consistent with canon,
> and use the resulting methodology to pull the synthesis out of the
> thesis and antithesis. 

It is indeed a ceasefire, and I don't think there can be any resolution, 
not even after OoP in all likelihood.  I doubt anyone will concede that 
all romance pairings at age 15 are lifetime relationships after all, 
even in a fictional fantasy universe.  We shippers interpret canon 
differently.  For example, I see absolutely no evidence that Harry is 
now on the fringe, an outside observer, of a budding romantic 
relationship between Ron & Hermione (which is David's point I believe).
I definitely see no evidence that Hermione is maternal or big-sisterish 
with Harry, as Jo asserts.  My interpretation of the canon is exactly 
the opposite you see.  It's the Hermione-Ron dynamic that smacks of 
siblings in my book.  All that bickering & bantering; that's classic 
brother-sister stuff.  Then again, I've never been involved in a 
romantic relationship that included bickering as a modus operandi so I 
suppose I just can't relate.  I also, for the record, don't know of any 
other relationships outside of Hollywood that truly replicate that 
Spencer Tracy/Katherine Hepburn sparring.  That's not to say it doesn't 
exist (no need for 615 of you to all write in about your own personal 
bickering romances -- <g>).  It just doesn't exist in my world; I equate 
it with romantic comedies.  Romantic comedies are very funny, but they 
aren't real life as far as I'm concerned.

As for Harry/Hermione, whatever Harry may think or feel at this moment, 
what's clear to me is that Hermione feels something a great deal more 
than sisterly or maternal affection.  She talks about him all the time 
to Krum for example.  We don't see Krum saying that she talks about 
Harry *and* Ron all the time, do we?  What we do see is *Krum* 
interpreting Hermione's actions as evidence of romantic interest in 
Harry.  Krum seems like a sharp enough fellow.

Jo wrote:

> term "maternal", then big-sisterish) with Harry, constantly fussing
> over him and fretting about what she thinks he should be doing.  This
> is obviously somewhat annoying to Harry, but instead of telling her to
> back off, he just quietly ignores her and refuses to even engage her
> on whatever topic she's going on about.

I might, again, need some canon evidence of this.  One of my favorite 
scenes that shows the developing relationship between Harry & Hermione 
(I don't mean romantic relationship .. but rather the changes in their 
general relationship to each other) is from PoA.  Chapter 10, The 
Marauder's Map (page 199 in US paperback):

______________

After arguing unsuccessfully that Harry should turn in the Marauder's 
Map (Harry & then Ron have both countered her objections):

"Hermione bit her lip, looking extremely worried."

"Are you going to report me?"  Harry asked her, *grinning* (emphasis mine).

"Oh -- of course not -- but honestly Harry --"

__________________________

It shows that Harry can gently tease her into relaxing, and she doesn't 
have to resort to bossiness or arguing in response.  The same scenario 
between Ron & Hermione would have, IMO, devolved into a full-out row.

So ... again, I would want canon evidence that Harry ignores Hermione & 
refuses to engage her.  Remember also that it was Hermione who stood by 
Harry through all the events of GoF; he was hardly ignoring her then.

Jo again:

> As a result, there seems to be a
> sort of closeness between them, that does not include Harry.  I guess
> what I'm really trying to say is that in PS/SS, their friendship is
> all about being with Harry, but in COS JKR gradually begins to show a
> personal friendship between Hermione and Ron that is not Harry-
> centric, and by GOF whatever is going on between them has almost
> nothing to do with Harry.

Sorry, but you'll need to provide some canon examples of this.  I'm 
really amazed that you people think that Ron & Hermione have an 
off-the-page relationship going on that should be evident to us as 
readers.  Is this extrapolation or do you have specifics you can point to?
All to say ... different interpretations of canon, you see.  I cannot 
imagine David that the shippers (or the various Snape theorists) are 
going to find common ground in any interpretation of canon.  This ties 
in nicely with the discussions Gwen kicked off about fanfic, discussion 
groups & canon.  I've made the point before (see Message #16381, 16434 & 
messages around that time period in general for further elaboration on 
those points), but it seems to me that canon purists are impossible to 
find really.  None of the active members of this group (or even active 
lurkers) can make that claim in my mind.  If you're participating or 
reading discussions on this group, you've had your perceptions about 
canon influenced, however subtly.  It doesn't matter if you read fanfic 
or avoid it like the plague.  And, as is evident from the different 
interpretations that the shippers bring to bear on that aspect of the 
books, there are as many interpretations of the characters & their 
relationships with one another as their are pairs of eyes reading the 
books.  Yes?

BTW, I completely applaud Gwen's last post on the topic of fanfic & 
canon.  I had a reply sort of in draft form & then realized that it was 
mainly a glorified "me too" post.  So, I will just bow to Gwen's 
wonderful points on that topic & say a hearty "Hear, hear!"  I will say 
that I wonder if Cindy's statment about "huge" changes to canon refers 
to post-Hogwarts fanfics making assumptions about the course of 
as-yet-unpublished canon.

Penny