SHIP: R/H: Muddying the pool - Hermione's challenges - Diary
davewitley
dfrankiswork at netscape.net
Wed Dec 12 13:45:20 UTC 2001
No: HPFGUIDX 31370
So much to say, so little time to say it. Thank you to all who
responded to my recent posts, particularly those who disagree.
Before we get into the nitty-gritty, can I just make one point? The
Romantic Pairings FAQ points out that interpretations in this area
are conditioned by our own experiences of romance. While I'm sure
this is true - indeed someone has posted comparing their own
relationship with an imagined future for Ron and Hermione - I believe
an even greater, and more hidden influence, is our conception of what
romance and friendship are, and how they relate to each other. This
is IMO affected by how we observed our parents (if they were there to
observe): can I suggest that if anyone here wants to understand their
*own* shipping preference, they might profit from comparing their
parents' relationship with their HP expectations. I believe this
whole area gets contentious because half-understood feelings are
exposed in our own minds by reading HP (as should be the effect of
good literature), we then convert those feelings into an
interpretation of canon, someone disagrees on the basis of a textual
point, and we feel that our very essence has been attacked. But the
fact that feelings are so strong shows that this *is* the area where
we will be most challenged, changed and enlightened by allowing
others to contend our interpretations, IMO the whole point of a group
for 'grownups'.
Penny:
> me:
>
> They have been developing a shared assumption of
> > exclusivity (with, admittedly, Harry's position in the
relationship
> > very undefined - to a degree they battle to be the one he listens
> > to), so when she accepts Krum's invitation to the ball, Ron can
see
> > it as the violation of a tacit, even subliminal, agreement.
>
> Can I ask for some greater canonical proof of this tacit
understanding?
The sort of thing I am thinking is that Hermione feels she has the
right to tell Ron and Harry what to do. Mostly over homework (doing
it, copying it) and intentions to break rules. As I say, chiefly in
COS and POA.
> I'm sorry, but I just don't see this, particularly the part about
> Harry's part in their relationship being undefined. How is that
> exactly?
It's probably just me that hasn't got around to thinking through
Harry's role in this. However, I did mean something fairly narrow -
that I have little idea how Harry fits in with what I see as R & He's
assumptions about each other. I certainly don't mean (pace Cassie)
that Harry is more distant from them or becoming isolated. (What
exactly does it *mean* to say that A is 'closer' to B than to C?
IMO, it is meaningless for close, complex cases as we have here. A
triangle is a nice image but by allowing us to assign lengths to the
sides it is misleading.)
We don't see Ron & Hermione interacting without Harry ....
> well other than the time that he notes that he's trying to escape
their
> unpleasant sniping at one another by taking refuge in the owlery.
<g>
Agreed
>
> In a separate post, Penny had written:
>
> > > Most shippers choose to accent the evidence that favors their
preference.
>
I responded with:
> >
> > Hegel would spin in his grave.
Penny again:
> It is indeed a ceasefire, and I don't think there can be any
resolution, not even after OoP in all likelihood.
Ok, I admit it, that was with tongue far advanced into cheek. I
don't really believe in a unique interpretation. But I hate it when
people agree to differ. I always feel that if I work a bit harder to
understand where the other person is coming from, and to explain my
own point of view a bit better, we will get to a meeting of minds.
(The denial of this is what I so detest about some forms of post-
modernism, BTW, though I like other things about it). I suppose I
want to get away from the idea of *my* interpretation. If your
interpretation is as good as mine, why can't I adopt it, without
losing the alternatives I already have? I confess to being surprised
by the comments people have made about wanting their and other
people's fanfic to be consistent with canon - I had thought the idea
was to use JKR's ready-made Lego bricks to make your own cracking
yarn for fun.
Let me make reference to another old chestnut: Hermione's age. When
I joined HPFGU, I had no idea how old she is, except that it must be
within a year of Harry either way - though I hadn't even thought of
it that far. When the topic came up, and I learned her birthday is
in September, without giving it any thought, I plumped for 'old'
Hermione. Starting to argue the point, I rapidly became aware of the
weaknesses in any proof that she is older. So now I have two
interpretations, both valid according to assumptions undecidable from
canon. I am finally starting to see why some listies might have an
interest ('Krum 17, Hermione 14, eww!'). But I am not personally
invested in either interpretation any more. I want to get, with your
help, to the point where I can put on my R/H hat and understand the
books, then take it off, put on my H/H hat and understand the books.
Unlike Harry, I want to do well in both Gryffindor and Slytherin. I
want to get to the point where failure to be able to hold more than
one interpretation is demonstration that there is only one.
> I doubt anyone will concede that
> all romance pairings at age 15 are lifetime relationships after
all,
> even in a fictional fantasy universe.
Indeed, not usually. But ambitious though my demands were, they
weren't *that* ambitious! All I meant was, Can we work out what is
going on up to the end of GOF. I take fully the point that by
running the characters on into the future we may learn about them in
the 'present' (or more likely, learn about how we think about them),
but I wasn't aiming for prediction
We shippers interpret canon
> differently. For example, I see absolutely no evidence that Harry
is
> now on the fringe, an outside observer, of a budding romantic
> relationship between Ron & Hermione (which is David's point I
believe).
Ooh, no, I didn't think so. Cassie made some apposite comments on
this, I hope not taken out of context:
>Am I saying that Ron is not Hermione's friend? Of course not. Do I
>think they are very close in their own way? Yes. But they are no
>closer with each other than Harry and Hermione are with each other.
>It is simply a different dynamic. The beauty of the Trio's
friendship
>is that it is so well-balanced.
All I am saying is that the dynamic is different. The way Hermione
treats Ron is developing in a different way to the way she treats
Harry - in fact we all agree on this, of course. We probably all
agree that none of them is becoming more distant or excluded from the
friendship. Ah, I realise what I have said that is confusing: I
believe Hermione and Ron both act as though they have some rights
over the other, that are developing in an 'exclusive' direction, in
the sense that they assume that they are the only ones who can
exercise that right. With Ron, by the Yule Ball, that's obvious. I
do feel that Hermione, having started out anxiously feeling
responsible for everything within her ambit, has narrowed her focus
by this time. But it does occur to me that some of the instances I
am thinking about may be Ron reacting to Hermione's attempts to
assert herself over *Harry*, which of course, makes a big difference.
BTW, I would qualify the adjective 'well-balanced' above. Long term
stability strengthened by short term dynamic instability (or
imbalance, if you will).
Penny again:
> Then again, I've never been involved in a
> romantic relationship that included bickering as a modus operandi
so I
> suppose I just can't relate. I also, for the record, don't know of
any
> other relationships outside of Hollywood that truly replicate that
> Spencer Tracy/Katherine Hepburn sparring.
This is really the point I made at the beginning of this too-long
post. I never read the Tracy/Hepburn fanfic, so it hasn't directly
polluted my view of canon. I agree bickering per se is not evidence
of anything - the aim is to look at what lies behind it. Do they do
nothing *but* argue, anyway?
> PoA. Chapter 10, The
> Marauder's Map (page 199 in US paperback):
>
> ______________
>
> After arguing unsuccessfully that Harry should turn in the
Marauder's
> Map (Harry & then Ron have both countered her objections):
>
> "Hermione bit her lip, looking extremely worried."
>
> "Are you going to report me?" Harry asked her, *grinning*
(emphasis mine).
>
> "Oh -- of course not -- but honestly Harry --"
>
> __________________________
>
> So ... again, I would want canon evidence that Harry ignores
Hermione &
> refuses to engage her. Remember also that it was Hermione who
stood by
> Harry through all the events of GoF; he was hardly ignoring her
then.
That is a lovely passage... Of course Harry doesn't ignore Hermione
in the general sense - all I meant was that he ignores her
tactically, by refusing to be drawn into argument, I think mainly
earlier in the series. The above passage I see as a development of
that - he asserts what he is going to do, and dares her to do
something about it. The question is, does this draw Hermione on, or
make her give up? I think (speculation/fanfic again!) that you are
right, had it been Ron, there would have been a row. But is this
partly because Hermione tries to go further in asserting herself over
Ron?
Let's start a new thread: Because Hermione tries to influence them in
ways they do not want to go, the boys by their different responses
present different challenges to her. Which type of challenge does
she respond more to, and why?
> I'm really amazed that you people think that Ron & Hermione have
an
> off-the-page relationship going on that should be evident to us as
> readers.
not me - I don't think that. All is below the surface, and on the
page. Ooh, here's a good question: to what extent is Riddle's diary
a metaphor for literature?
> see Message #16381, 16434
I only take issue with one point in 16434 (funnily enough I
discovered that thread only the other day)
>Again, I could care less who reads fanfic and who doesn't.
I hope you do care. I fear I may have talked myself into reading a
pile of fanfic - when, I don't know.
David
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