SHIP: R/H: Muddying the pool - Hermione's challenges - Diary

[davewitley]

No: HPFGUIDX 31370

So much to say, so little time to say it.  Thank you to all who 
responded to my recent posts, particularly those who disagree.

Before we get into the nitty-gritty, can I just make one point?  The 
Romantic Pairings FAQ points out that interpretations in this area 
are conditioned by our own experiences of romance.  While I'm sure 
this is true - indeed someone has posted comparing their own 
relationship with an imagined future for Ron and Hermione - I believe 
an even greater, and more hidden influence, is our conception of what 
romance and friendship are, and how they relate to each other.  This 
is IMO affected by how we observed our parents (if they were there to 
observe): can I suggest that if anyone here wants to understand their 
*own* shipping preference, they might profit from comparing their 
parents' relationship with their HP expectations.  I believe this 
whole area gets contentious because half-understood feelings are 
exposed in our own minds by reading HP (as should be the effect of 
good literature), we then convert those feelings into an 
interpretation of canon, someone disagrees on the basis of a textual 
point, and we feel that our very essence has been attacked.  But the 
fact that feelings are so strong shows that this *is* the area where 
we will be most challenged, changed and enlightened by allowing 
others to contend our interpretations, IMO the whole point of a group 
for 'grownups'.

Penny:
> me:
> 
>   They have been developing a shared assumption of
> > exclusivity (with, admittedly, Harry's position in the 
relationship
> > very undefined - to a degree they battle to be the one he listens
> > to), so when she accepts Krum's invitation to the ball, Ron can 
see
> > it as the violation of a tacit, even subliminal, agreement.
> 
> Can I ask for some greater canonical proof of this tacit 
understanding? 

The sort of thing I am thinking is that Hermione feels she has the 
right to tell Ron and Harry what to do.  Mostly over homework (doing 
it, copying it) and intentions to break rules.  As I say, chiefly in 
COS and POA.

>   I'm sorry, but I just don't see this, particularly the part about 
> Harry's part in their relationship being undefined.  How is that 
> exactly?

It's probably just me that hasn't got around to thinking through 
Harry's role in this.  However, I did mean something fairly narrow - 
that I have little idea how Harry fits in with what I see as R & He's 
assumptions about each other.  I certainly don't mean (pace Cassie) 
that Harry is more distant from them or becoming isolated. (What 
exactly does it *mean* to say that A is 'closer' to B than to C?  
IMO, it is meaningless for close, complex cases as we have here.  A 
triangle is a nice image but by allowing us to assign lengths to the 
sides it is misleading.)

  We don't see Ron & Hermione interacting without Harry .... 
> well other than the time that he notes that he's trying to escape 
their 
> unpleasant sniping at one another by taking refuge in the owlery. 
<g>

Agreed
> 
> In a separate post, Penny had written:
> 
> > > Most shippers choose to accent the evidence that favors their 
preference.
> 
 I responded with:
> > 
> > Hegel would spin in his grave.

Penny again: 

> It is indeed a ceasefire, and I don't think there can be any 
resolution, not even after OoP in all likelihood.

Ok, I admit it, that was with tongue far advanced into cheek.  I 
don't really believe in a unique interpretation.  But I hate it when 
people agree to differ.  I always feel that if I work a bit harder to 
understand where the other person is coming from, and to explain my 
own point of view a bit better, we will get to a meeting of minds.  
(The denial of this is what I so detest about some forms of post-
modernism, BTW, though I like other things about it). I suppose I 
want to get away from the idea of *my* interpretation.  If your 
interpretation is as good as mine, why can't I adopt it, without 
losing the alternatives I already have? I confess to being surprised 
by the comments people have made about wanting their and other 
people's fanfic to be consistent with canon - I had thought the idea 
was to use JKR's ready-made Lego bricks to make your own cracking 
yarn for fun.

Let me make reference to another old chestnut: Hermione's age.  When 
I joined HPFGU, I had no idea how old she is, except that it must be 
within a year of Harry either way - though I hadn't even thought of 
it that far.  When the topic came up, and I learned her birthday is 
in September, without giving it any thought, I plumped for 'old' 
Hermione.  Starting to argue the point, I rapidly became aware of the 
weaknesses in any proof that she is older.  So now I have two 
interpretations, both valid according to assumptions undecidable from 
canon.  I am finally starting to see why some listies might have an 
interest ('Krum 17, Hermione 14,  eww!').  But I am not personally 
invested in either interpretation any more.  I want to get, with your 
help, to the point where I can put on my R/H hat and understand the 
books, then take it off, put on my H/H hat and understand the books.  
Unlike Harry, I want to do well in both Gryffindor and Slytherin.  I 
want to get to the point where failure to be able to hold more than 
one interpretation is demonstration that there is only one.

> I doubt anyone will concede that 
> all romance pairings at age 15 are lifetime relationships after 
all, 
> even in a fictional fantasy universe.

Indeed, not usually.  But ambitious though my demands were, they 
weren't *that* ambitious!  All I meant was, Can we work out what is 
going on up to the end of GOF.  I take fully the point that by 
running the characters on into the future we may learn about them in 
the 'present' (or more likely, learn about how we think about them), 
but I wasn't aiming for prediction

  We shippers interpret canon 
> differently.  For example, I see absolutely no evidence that Harry 
is 
> now on the fringe, an outside observer, of a budding romantic 
> relationship between Ron & Hermione (which is David's point I 
believe).

Ooh, no, I didn't think so.  Cassie made some apposite comments on 
this, I hope not taken out of context:

>Am I saying that Ron is not Hermione's friend? Of course not. Do I 
>think they are very close in their own way? Yes. But they are no 
>closer with each other than Harry and Hermione are with each other. 
>It is simply a different dynamic. The beauty of the Trio's 
friendship 
>is that it is so well-balanced.

All I am saying is that the dynamic is different.  The way Hermione 
treats Ron is developing in a different way to the way she treats 
Harry - in fact we all agree on this, of course.  We probably all 
agree that none of them is becoming more distant or excluded from the 
friendship.  Ah, I realise what I have said that is confusing: I 
believe Hermione and Ron both act as though they have some rights 
over the other, that are developing in an 'exclusive' direction, in 
the sense that they assume that they are the only ones who can 
exercise that right.  With Ron, by the Yule Ball, that's obvious.  I 
do feel that Hermione, having started out anxiously feeling 
responsible for everything within her ambit, has narrowed her focus 
by this time.  But it does occur to me that some of the instances I 
am thinking about may be Ron reacting to Hermione's attempts to 
assert herself over *Harry*, which of course, makes a big difference.

BTW, I would qualify the adjective 'well-balanced' above.  Long term 
stability strengthened by short term dynamic instability (or 
imbalance, if you will).

Penny again:

> Then again, I've never been involved in a 
> romantic relationship that included bickering as a modus operandi 
so I 
> suppose I just can't relate.  I also, for the record, don't know of 
any 
> other relationships outside of Hollywood that truly replicate that 
> Spencer Tracy/Katherine Hepburn sparring.  

This is really the point I made at the beginning of this too-long 
post.  I never read the Tracy/Hepburn fanfic, so it hasn't directly 
polluted my view of canon.  I agree bickering per se is not evidence 
of anything - the aim is to look at what lies behind it.  Do they do 
nothing *but* argue, anyway?


>  PoA.  Chapter 10, The 
> Marauder's Map (page 199 in US paperback):
> 
> ______________
> 
> After arguing unsuccessfully that Harry should turn in the 
Marauder's 
> Map (Harry & then Ron have both countered her objections):
> 
> "Hermione bit her lip, looking extremely worried."
> 
> "Are you going to report me?"  Harry asked her, *grinning* 
(emphasis mine).
> 
> "Oh -- of course not -- but honestly Harry --"
> 
> __________________________
> 
> So ... again, I would want canon evidence that Harry ignores 
Hermione & 
> refuses to engage her.  Remember also that it was Hermione who 
stood by 
> Harry through all the events of GoF; he was hardly ignoring her 
then.

That is a lovely passage... Of course Harry doesn't ignore Hermione 
in the general sense - all I meant was that he ignores her 
tactically, by refusing to be drawn into argument, I think mainly 
earlier in the series.  The above passage I see as a development of 
that - he asserts what he is going to do, and dares her to do 
something about it.  The question is, does this draw Hermione on, or 
make her give up?  I think (speculation/fanfic again!) that you are 
right, had it been Ron, there would have been a row.  But is this 
partly because Hermione tries to go further in asserting herself over 
Ron?

Let's start a new thread: Because Hermione tries to influence them in 
ways they do not want to go, the boys by their different responses 
present different challenges to her.  Which type of challenge does 
she respond more to, and why?
 
>  I'm really amazed that you people think that Ron & Hermione have 
an 
> off-the-page relationship going on that should be evident to us as 
> readers.

not me - I don't think that.  All is below the surface, and on the 
page.  Ooh, here's a good question: to what extent is Riddle's diary 
a metaphor for literature?

> see Message #16381, 16434

I only take issue with one point in 16434 (funnily enough I 
discovered that thread only the other day)

>Again, I could care less who reads fanfic and who doesn't.

I hope you do care.  I fear I may have talked myself into reading a 
pile of fanfic - when, I don't know.

David