Sailing, Sailing....and arguing 'bout the SHIPS

[raolin.rm]

No: HPFGUIDX 31471

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "hermione1956" <djdwjt at a...> wrote:
> Here's my proffer on the shipping debate.  I agree with jenbea, but 
> tried to lay out where they are right now based on canon.  I'm not 
> sure I've really added anything new, but I wrote it, so I'll go 
ahead 
> and post it.


Based on your interpretation of canon, you mean.  Laying out where 
they are based on canon would be quoting sections of the book.  What 
you are doing is merely giving your interpretation and attempting to 
give it weight by attaching the word canon in every so often.  Still, 
it's a useful post.  I'll cover some details below.


> Ron -- JKR has spent 4 books carefully setting up Ron's attraction 
to 
> Hermione, and it does not seem like a temporary infatuation. 


That's certainly a debatable "fact."  I've said many times and I'll 
say again, I see nothing whatsoever to indicate that Ron had any 
attraction for Hermione before about one third of the way through 
book 4 when suddenly he's desperate to have a date for the Ball.  
>From that point on, his attraction for Hermione is fairly obvious, 
but not before.


> But I 
> doubt a R/H relationship will develop anytime soon.  First, Ron is 
> very confused right now and his entire outlook on life is colored 
by 
> jealousy -- of Harry, his brothers, Krum, etc.  He doesn't have a 
> grip on his feelings, he lacks self-identity, which manifests in 
his 
> lackadaisical outlook on life.  To be ready for a relationship with 
> an intellectual like Hermione, he needs to do some self-evaluation, 
> recognize and develop his talents better, and generally realize how 
> fortunate he is vis-a-vis Harry.  (He seems still not to have fully 
> realized that Harry would trade all his Gringotts gold for a loving 
> family like Ron's.)  I suspect that in Book Five and maybe beyond, 
> Ron will be forced to make serious choices and that if he does the 
> easy thing, as we know he has a tendency to do, he (and maybe the 
> trio) will be in serious trouble -- not just SHIP problems.


While true, this really isn't relevant.  In real life, tons of people 
get together that aren't mature enough for it, aren't ready for it, 
and aren't really "right" for each other.  Why should the wizarding 
world be any different?  In real life, such relationships can go on 
for years ignoring, or glossing over these problems until they either 
finally work themselves out or destroy the relationship.  The same 
could happen here just as easily.  The question becomes, would JKR 
write such a relationship into her characters?  Given her own past 
relationship with her ex-husband (which her biography is notoriously 
quiet about) we can see that she's familiar with the subject, yet so 
far we have absolutely no indication of a failed romantic 
relationship anywhere in the series.  Possibly she established the 
series as a sort of fairy tale where it comes to romance, and thus 
relationships, once committed, are destined to be "happily ever 
after."  Then again, there's no reason other than the fact that we 
know of absolutely no divorces -- to think that.

In the long run, and this'll apply below as well, how "suitable" Ron 
is for Hermione, or Harry for Hermione, or Hermione for either, is 
really not relevant to what will actually happen -- rather, it is 
JKR's intentions, which are notoriously difficult to identify.


> Harry -- Right now he's not interested in Hermione other than as a 
> friend. She doesn't offer what he appears to need -- a break from 
> constantly focusing on the special burdens he carries -- instead, 
she 
> makes him focus on them more.  Note his comment that when Hermione 
> was his best friend he spent too much time in the library.  Rather, 
> Hermione constantly increases his focus on these problems as she 
> tries to help solve them.  Right now, certainly from Harry's 
> perspective, this relationship seems like a professional 
partnership 
> in which Hermione acts as a loyal behind-the-scenes researcher, 
> analyst, moral supporter and friend.  


Oddly enough, in classic generic relationship studies (and in my own 
relationship with my wife, as a matter of fact) the role you are 
describing for Hermione is typically the role of the man.  Men 
typically (and note the typically before I'm bombarded with 
exceptions -- and note that this is something I've read, not 
something I've just got a gut-feel or a couple of observations on) 
men don't understand the need to listen to problems.  Our 
understanding is naturally to try and solve someone's problem when 
they come to us with one.  When my wife comes to me with a problem, 
my natural reaction is to start offering solutions, and to get very 
frustrated when she shows little or no interest in implementing any 
of them, or when she doesn't want me to even throw them out.  
Meanwhile, my wife's reaction is "why don't you just shut up for a 
minute and listen to me?"

Granted, we don't know that Harry fits into this "typical male" 
mold.  Then again, we don't know that Harry needs a break from his 
burdens -- although he does seem to enjoy stress-relieving breaks 
with Ron.  That nearly gets him in tons of trouble in GF though -- 
with the stakes raised, can he afford to do that?


> What's next for Harry?  Aside 
> from the fact that his crush on Cho likely died with Cedric, and 
that 
> Voldemort will be a greater threat than ever, we don't know.  There 
> are a lot of students at Hogwarts besides Hermione.  Maybe one of 
> them will replace Cho.  Maybe he'll be too busy with Voldemort to 
> focus on relationships.  Or maybe he and Ron will come to conflict 
> over Hermione.  And maybe it all depends on . . .


No indication so far that his crush on Cho died with Cedric.  I 
expect him to still work through his feelings for Cho in book 5.


> Hermione -- this is the wild card, because we don't know her 
> feelings.  Reading between the lines, IMHO it seems likely that she 
> wanted Ron to ask her to the Yule Ball, but we don't know the 
> reason.  Maybe she just wanted to go with her two best friends, and 
> Harry was not an option as a date because that would only have 
> provided grist for the Rita Skeeter gossip mill.  There's probably 
> more canonical evidence to support a romantic interest in Ron than 
> Harry, but none is clear-cut.  Each offers her something different -
- 


Again, only in your interpretation.  I could (and would, although I 
won't make that statement really now) say that there is much more 
canonical evidence for interest in Harry, and that there is no 
indication whatsoever that she wanted Ron to ask her to the ball, but 
that's what you get when you start to call your interpretation canon, 
though.


> Harry is the intellectual choice, but she really does need help in 
> lightening up, and Harry can't do that for her.  


Does she really?  I have a feeling that Hermione is sometimes pidgeon-
holed into the personality she was in book 1 without taking into 
account her character development since then.  The reason Hermione is 
my favorite character in the series is that she has *by far* shown 
the most development over the course of the books.  Even as early as 
book 2 Ron and Harry are both astonished and amazed at Hermione's 
brazen plans to flout the rules and go do what appear to be crazy 
things (the whole polyjuice potion episode.)

Then again, who says that Harry doesn't help her lighten up?  Harry's 
a pretty fun guy too, and he has his share of witty reparte with 
various characters throughout the series.  Harry may very well be the 
more balanced choice for her, rather than the extreme of Ron.


> But if she is 
> conflicted, she will have trouble making the right choice, or 
perhaps 
> any choice, accustomed as she is to relying on her books, which are 
> useless here.  

Well, there are tons of books out there which could help her, but I'd 
argue this observation as well.  Hermione has shown on numerous 
occasions that she is quick-witted in danger, very capable, and does 
not necessarily "rely on books."  Sure, she likes them, and she uses 
them, and even Harry knows that her reaction to things like his scar 
hurting is to look in a book and go talk to Dumbledore, but that 
doesn't make her, IMO, reliant on books.


> So, what's the answer to the shipping debate?  I don't think any of 
> the three are ready for either of the ships, and I'm hoping to get 
> through at least Book Five without any such thing among the trio.  
> Each of H/R/H will have many choices to make in the next 3 years 
that 
> will influence, not just their romantic lives, but all aspects of 
> their relationships.  This is just one of several areas in which 
> their choices, not their destinies, will determine the outcomes.  
We 
> cannot predict, except to say that unlike the rest of the issues, 
the 
> only plot twists that directly affect the romantic outcome will be 
> the influences inside the characters' own minds and hearts 
affecting 
> their own actions.  (Unless, of course, one of the trio gets killed 
> off, in which case I will burn all the books and read no more.)
> 
> djd


Despite my litany of disagreement with you previously, I agree with 
everything in this summary (well, except that I certainly will 
continue to read them, even if one of the trio dies.)  We don't know 
enough yet to confidently ship anyone, as all three of them need to 
go through a lot more development before JKR likely has them in a 
position in which she could ship them, even if she wanted to (which 
we don't even know if she will do.)

Joshua Dyal