What to do if you hate SHIPping; Sailing, Sailing....and arguing 'bout the SHIPS

[Penny & Bryce]

No: HPFGUIDX 31495

Hi --

Liquidfire asked if we might talk about something else & basically asked 
if the Shippers would shut up (although slightly more politely).  It 
seems other non-shippers have joined the general outcry.  Here are 2 
things you can do if you don't like the SHIPping discussions (which 
historically come & go in waves ... there's another nautical reference):

1.  SKIP the posts (they all conveniently say SHIP in the subject line 
somewhere or they are supposed to in any case).

2.  Start a NEW conversation or two or three new conversations.  And, 
probably continue to skip the posts that don't interest you.

:::smiles sweetly:::

BTW, the above advice applies to any topic that you find of little 
interest.  Isn't it far more diplomatic/polite to abstain from topics 
that don't interest you & start ones that do than to whinge & complain 
about things that others are enjoying?

:::smiles sweetly again:::

Now, on to IMPORTANT & weighty intellectual matters ...

raolin.rm wrote:

 
djd wrote: >  > Ron -- JKR has spent 4 books carefully setting up Ron's attraction
> to Hermione, and it does not seem like a temporary infatuation.
> 
Joshua responded:  
> That's certainly a debatable "fact."  I've said many times and I'll
> say again, I see nothing whatsoever to indicate that Ron had any
> attraction for Hermione before about one third of the way through
> book 4 when suddenly he's desperate to have a date for the Ball. 
>  >From that point on, his attraction for Hermione is fairly obvious,
> but not before.

As much as I agree with most of Joshua's points on this subject (<g>), 
even I can't agree with this.  I do think there are subtle clues to 
Ron's growing attraction to Hermione, starting perhaps with the belching 
slugs incident in CoS (and certainly his determination to brave the 
spiders in CoS).  Of course, the characters aren't anywhere near to the 
point of having acknowledgeable romantic feelings at that stage, but I 
think JKR was setting up the foundation for what would become crystal 
clear by mid-way through GoF.  Let's just say that Ron's behavior in the 
entire Yule Ball sequence wasn't exactly surprising to me.

> 
Joshua mused:

Possibly she established the
> series as a sort of fairy tale where it comes to romance, and thus
> relationships, once committed, are destined to be "happily ever
> after."  Then again, there's no reason other than the fact that we
> know of absolutely no divorces -- to think that.

I think this interpretation of the potential ending of the series may be 
one of the most fundamental differences amongst the shippers.  On the 
whole (and speaking in huge generalities), I would say that many or most 
R/H and/or H/G shippers believe that the books are essentially 
well-written fairy tales, essentially childrens' lit (I know you don't 
agree on that particular point, bbennett!), and will have a happy 
fairy-tale ending.  By contrast, many of the H/H shippers don't think 
these are childrens' books per se, don't think they fit the fairy tale 
formula & doubt seriously that the ending will be "happily ever after" 
for everyone.  I know my own take on the potential ending is that it 
will be optimistic & forward-looking but not syrupy sweet & all wrapped 
up in a bow.

I don't think there's any reason to think that the wizarding world 
operates on a "marry the first person you date & no divorce" system. 
<g>  I just can't imagine that this is how it works.  So, even if Harry 
decides he's wildly in love with Hermione in Book 5 & they end up 
dating, do I think they'll never date anyone else, get married & have 
lots of little kids with black hair & big teeth?  Er. ... no.

Joshua again:> 
> No indication so far that his crush on Cho died with Cedric.  I
> expect him to still work through his feelings for Cho in book 5.

Eh ... 'fraid I must disagree here too. I don't think he had anything 
more than a superficial crush on her at best; it's not as though we saw 
the two of them interacting much at all.  He really never knew Cho as a 
person, and the tragic circumstances of Cedric's death & Harry's role in 
all that led to it will doubtless keep Cho far from his mind.  I can't 
imagine in my wildest dreams that Harry would continue to have a crush 
on her after all that's happened.  Is it the kiss of doom for the 
Harry/Cho shippers?  Possibly not.  But probably it is at least 
temporarily suspended if nothing else.

Joshua, in responding to djd's assertion that Hermione wanted Ron to ask 
her to the Ball:

 
> Again, only in your interpretation.  I could (and would, although I
> won't make that statement really now) say that there is much more
> canonical evidence for interest in Harry, and that there is no
> indication whatsoever that she wanted Ron to ask her to the ball, but
> that's what you get when you start to call your interpretation canon,
> though.

Yeah.  I see no evidence that Hermione *wanted* Ron to ask her to the 
Ball.  She wasn't exactly pining away after him since she already had a 
date by the time the boys decided the event was looming on the horizon. 
  <g>  She was very offended in a feminist way to Ron's comment about he 
& Harry ending up with a pair of trolls if they didn't get a move on. 
So, the entire sequence of events must be read with that in mind.  And, 
you have to consider what Ron likely said to Hermione just before Harry 
(and the readers) step into the common room & hear the tail end of the 
Ron & Hermione post-Yule row.  I don't feel like rehashing my 
interpretation of the Yule Ball argument ... but I'm sure you can find 
my ramblings on this subject easily enough in the Message Archives if 
you're interested.  <g>

> 
>djd: 
>  > Harry is the intellectual choice, but she really does need help in
>  > lightening up, and Harry can't do that for her. 
> 
Joshua responded: 
> Does she really?  I have a feeling that Hermione is sometimes pidgeon-
> holed into the personality she was in book 1 without taking into
> account her character development since then.

*Absolutely!*  She *has* lightened up.  JKR thinks so too ("...... 
bright nor as annoying as Hermione. At least, I hope I wasn't, because I 
would have deserved drowning at birth. But she, like me, lightens up.") 
The Telegraph ... 25 July 1998.

  The reason Hermione is
> my favorite character in the series is that she has *by far* shown
> the most development over the course of the books.

Yes, and like me, you'd probably be horrified by the number of fanfics 
out there where Hermione is just a chronologically older version of her 
PS/SS bossy self.  Grrr.....

 
Joshua again:

> 
> Then again, who says that Harry doesn't help her lighten up?  Harry's
> a pretty fun guy too, and he has his share of witty reparte with
> various characters throughout the series.  Harry may very well be the
> more balanced choice for her, rather than the extreme of Ron.

Exactly.  But then, some fans think that Ron is the only funny person in 
the Trio.  Yes, I know that 14 yr old Harry doesn't like hanging out in 
the library all the time & he thinks that having just Hermione around 
isn't as much fun.  But, don't 'cha think that outlook might change a 
bit as they continue to age?  They won't be 14 forever, ya know.  There 
might be a time that the library (:::cough:snogging in an obscure corner 
of the library:cough:::) looks pretty attractive to Mr. Potter.  <g>

Penny
(who really is going to someday catalogue all the interactions of the 
Trio with each other so that it can be proven that Harry is funny 
sometimes, Ron & Hermione really aren't exchanging witty repartee 
constantly & Hermione is not a bossy wet blanket when she's not with Ron)