SHIP: Ron and the various ships

[Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 11434

Hi --

cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:

> Kelly wrote: And, yet, somehow, according to your very own post, she
> managed to tell Ron  "several times" that Harry didn't put his name
> into the Goblet.  When , if she  didn't spend any time with him?

> Cassie said:
> To return to the topic at hand, it sounded to me in GoF like Hermione
> tried to tell Ron several times *initially* that Harry didn't put his
> name in the Goblet. It sounded like she then gave up since Ron
> obviously wasn't listening, and chose to spend her time with Harry
> instead.

I think Kathy made the original point (rather than Kelly) so I'm
changing Cassie's references to Kathy -- but Cassie's response is
exactly what mine would have been.  I don't think I said "several"
times, but I do think she tried to do some go-between mediating early on
in the fight.  When it became apparent that neither of them were
listening, she chose to spend her time with Harry.  I still think that
Hermione spent virtually all her time with Harry during this fight --
after the initial mediation attempts failed -- I can't imagine when she
might have had any chance to be with Ron otherwise given that she was
with Harry at meal-times, in between classes, during classes, etc.

My main point is: she told Harry point-blank that Ron was jealous.  It
seems obvious to me that she must, at some point (probably breakfast
before she ever saw Harry), have tried to tell Ron that it was "obvious"
Harry didn't enter himself into the tournament.  Ron obviously didn't
listen at all (just like Harry shrugged aside her comments about Ron's
jealousy).  Maybe I'm wrong though -- maybe she never said a word to Ron
about it.  But, it seems unlikely given what we know of Hermione.  But,
whatever she said, I think she said it early-on ... as the fight wore
on, she spent her time with Harry.  Neither Ron nor Harry cared too much
about the other persons' feelings IMO.  But, I still maintain that Ron's
position is the more distasteful (IMHO anyway).

> Cassie again: But I don't actually think Penny would mind if you did
> come aboard the H/H and announce Harry was boring (which actually I
> think you
> have, over on the PoU list -- it could be considered an H/H haven,
> since all the listmoms are H/H.) It's your business if you find Harry
> boring (although suffering through a series of books about him, from
> his POV, must be tedious for you.)

That's correct.  I wouldn't mind -- everyone is entitled to their
opinion.  Like Cassie, I don't know what appeal the series has for you
if Harry is such a boring character.  But, that's just my take on it.
<g>

> Wheras I got the distinct impression from your posts and Zsenya's that
> even the suggestion that one thinks that it might be maybe possible
> for Ron to go to the dark side or betray his friends will get one
> booted from Sugarquill. <snip of very funny Cassie comment> There's a
> middle ground between Weasley-bashing and utter Ron-worship, and I get
> the feeling that even that middle ground wouldn't be tolerated. Again,
> I've only visited Sugarquill once, and *extremely* briefly, so I
> apologize if the impression I got from the site and the posts here was
> the wrong one, but that was it.

Thanks Cassie!  There's definitely a middle-ground, and that's where I
fall.  I don't think it qualifies as "Weasley-bashing" to consider the
theoretical possibility that Ron's jealous insecurity & obvious desire
for wealth and recognition might make him a very vulnerable target for
Voldemort & the dark side.  But, anything short of "Ron would *never*
betray his friend Harry, not under *any* circumstances" seems to be
labelled as "Weasley-bashing."

Kathy asked about my comment that criticism gets dished out liberally to
other characters by R/H types who simultaneously refuse to hear any bad
words about Ron.  Actually, Kathy my original post didn't say it was
"unfair" criticism -- I was just noting that R/H types don't have any
problem criticizing other characters but they seem to fairly bristle at
the slightest criticism of Ron.  This criticism that gets dished out to
the other characters from R/H types extends not only to Harry
(everything from boring to inconsiderate/selfish) and Hermione (bossy
know-it-all hen-pecking shrew, who nonetheless "should" be paired up
with Ron (inexplicably)) but also to Sirius and a wide variety of other
characters.  I know I can be touchy about Hermione, but I usually
support what I'm saying with reasoned arguments from the canon (as to
why she isn't bossy still, etc.) or at least that's my intent.  Don't
get me wrong: it's perfectly fine for people to think Harry is selfish
or Hermione is bossy & to post their reasons why.  But, I just don't
understand why *any* criticism of Ron should be met with such emotional
"how dare you" reactions from people.

> Cassie said:
> > >I see no H/G in the books (i.e., indications that Harry has feeling
>
> > >for Ginny
> >
> Kathy: And I see no evidence that he likes Hermione, but that doesn't
> stop people  from believing in H/H either.
>
> Cassie: And I see no evidence that Hermione likes Ron, but that
> doesn't stop people from believing in R/H.
>
> <g>

Thanks Cassie!  <eg>

> There was a time when I actually thought it possible that Ron might betray
> Harry, but after rereading the books more, I just don't see it.  He's far
> too protective of Harry and willing to sacrifice for him.  The Chess game in
> SS/PS has been hashed over endlessly, but what struck me recently were the scenes
> in PoA Ron pushes Harry out of the way when the dog attacks (Ron doesn't know
> about Sirius yet of course) and the way he stands up for him in the
> Shrieking Shack ("You'll have to kill all 3 of us!).  I just can't see someone who
> cares about his friend that much betraying him.  It just doesn't tally with Ron's
> character at all, IMO.
>
I don't necessarily see it as an intentional knowing betrayal at all.  I
just think Ron has the potential to be blinded by his desire for wealth
& fame to the point of unwittingly falling into a trap set by Voldy &
his death-eaters.  ::::shrugs::::  It's a *possibility* in my mind.

The only theory I have for a "knowing" betrayal of Harry by Ron has to
do with Hermione.  If Hermione does like Harry and rejects Ron (and
tells him why), and if Ron were to even mis-interpret Harry's reaction
or feelings - that sort of jealousy might lead him to take rash actions
(actions that *could* happen at the exact wrong time).  I don't think
this is as likely though as the unwitting betrayal scenario laid out
above.

> Cassie said: <g> I wonder if this death-prediction thing is an
> indicator of who our favorite characters are? Well, of course it is. I
> worry all the time that something will happen to Harry, that he will
> die in the end of Book 7, wheras I remain convinced that Ron will
> survive, probably
> because I wouldn't mind as much if he didn't. <eg> (As much, people.
> I didn't say I wouldn't mind at all. I don't hate Ron, he's just
> maybe 8th on my list, that's all.)

That's about where he falls on my list too.  And, I agree about the
death prediction hypothesis too.  I'm much more concerned about Harry
and Hermione than Ron.  I'm also terribly concerned for Sirius (who is
probably #3 or #4 on my list).

> Parker said:
> >There has also been, in this shipper debate a lot of talk about how
> >Ron is always the one defending Hermione.  Harry does too, guys!
> >Again, it's in GoF and it's what causes Hermione's teeth to grow.
> >Draco (as usual) says something sarcastic about Hermione and Harry
> >hexes him.  Draco hexes Harry and Goyle and Hermione end up being
> >hexed instead.
>
> Kathy said: I must respectfully disagree here.  The passage following Draco calling
> Hermione a Mudblood reads:
> "Some of the anger Harry had been feeling for days and days seemed to burst
> through a dam in his chest.  He had reached for his wand before he'd
> thought what he was doing" (GoF, UK ed, p. 262).
> To me, this indicates that Harry was taking out a lot of the tension he had
> been feeling on Malfoy.  Not to say that he wasn't genuinely angry that
> Malfoy insulted Hermione, but to me it read more like an excuse to let out his
> anger than a genuine defense of Hermione.  (And I might point out that Ron is the
> one who hurries forward to check on Hermione.)
>
And Ron never reacts (or defends Hermione) because of pent-up anger?
<g>  Sorry, but I agree with Parker -- Harry was clearly defending
Hermione in this scene.  Ron rushed toward Hermione while Harry was
still "engaged in battle" so to speak.  "Harry *turned* and saw Ron
dragging Hermione's hand away from her face ...."  It's not as if Harry
just vented his anger and didn't bother to see what happened to Hermione
after all was said & done.  Ron reacted quickly -- before the "duel" was
even over really.  Harry didn't have a chance to be the one to rush to
her side.

Penny



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