(SHIP FF SLASH) Re: This Ship stuff sounds like shojo

[Simon Biber]

No: HPFGUIDX 11656

Alex Corvus wrote:
> I didn't know if I should label this SHIP or FF, or both, or neither ...

Most SHIP comes under the FF header, but yes it is both. And I don't think
it's toooo off-topic. Especially if the extended nautical posts of late have
been allowed :-)

> Er, what explanation are you looking for, exactly? <g> No seriously,
because I
> could go on and on about this, but I don't want to if it's not the info
you're
> looking for. Are you asking about relationship dynamics within the slash
> pairings, or are you looking for some discussion of what the general
appeal
> is? Or something else?

I'm interested in discussing slash with you. If no-one else is, we could
perhaps take it off-list? Nah, scratch that... off-list communications
always dwindle away and there's never the chance for anyone else to join the
conversation.

> A couple of people have addressed the shounen-ai/yaoi phenomenon, which
I'm
> not nearly as conversant with as I am with slash (mainly info from Thorn's
> site and from aestheticism.com), but I think the seeds of both phenomena
are
> the same. Japanese culture appears to have more of an understanding that
> same-sex pairings, particularly m/m, hold considerable interest for some
girls
> and women, which Western culture - particularly in the US - seems to find
> distinctly ... odd. If that's what you're interested in, I can elaborate
on a
> number of reasons I think the appeal is there, from natural wiring in the
> lizardbrain, to explorations of homosocial bonding in source materials, to
> deconstruction of male sexuality, to the desire to see queer characters in
> media works, to sexual politics in art.

I am interested in slash as a gay man, so nothing to do with this
phenomenon. I can see on one level why women might like m/m, because many
straight men are turned on by f/f action in porn. I don't really see it as
odd, although my views tend to be pretty liberal and forgiving. Put another
way: not much 'squicks' me :-)

> Firebolt mentioned the seme/uke component of shounen-ai/yaoi, and while I
> agree that slash has less formally structured relationships, I do think
> there's a tendency to lock characters into dynamics that resemble the
seme/uke
> dynamic. You can see general trends, in a lot of cases, of making one
partner
> the alpha partner and the other the beta. To bring this back on topic,
there's
> lots of slash fanfiction out there that makes Lupin the passive partner to
> Black, that makes Draco the passive partner to Harry, both emotionally and
in
> ... well, in the sexual mechanics, to be somewhat blunt. Not all slash
does
> this, but it's enough of a trend to be noticeable. In egregious cases, the
> passive partner ends up getting "femmed" to a degree that makes me,
> personally, gnash my teeth and tear out my hair.

Yeah, this really happens to Draco, so much that he is mistakable for
Hermione in some pics made by the afflicted :-) I like my objects to be
proper men, not effeminate nancies (j/k).

> And then there's the whole discussion of people who are attracted to buddy
> pairings (Ron/Harry) as opposed to those attracted to antagonistic
pairings
> (Harry/Draco) ...

I'd have to say I'm more attracted to buddy pairings. Somewhat like Ebony
(hope I have the right person) here on this list said referring to He/Ro, I
just can't imagine a relationship built on antagonism and fights.

> G'head, ask. I could run my mouth about this to considerable length. <g>

Yes, I'm interested at least.

> Alexa,
> holding down the Ron/Draco fort
> (Harry? Who's that?)

Perhaps I'd better take up the R/Ha fort? (why fort rather than ship?)

Simon.