SHIP: RE: semi-formal analysis (Naama's logic)

[Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 11768

Hi --

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> > > The thing is that, generally speaking, a person is not indifferent
> to
> > > the romantic interest somebody has for him/her. How often has it
> > > happened (especially to women) that they ended falling in love
> with a
> > > guy they hadn't even noticed before he showed interest in them?
> Part
> > > of human nature, isn't it?
> >
> OK. As to my "formal analysis", if you really see more evidence to Her
> liking H than Her liking Ron than you definitely pull the rug from
> under my feet. My argument is indeed irrelevant.

Yeah, I do actually see stronger evidence that Hermione likes Harry
rather than Hermione likes Ron (not necessarily "more" evidence, but
"stronger" evidence in my mind).

> The real point here is: "there is so much of gratitude or vanity in
> almost every attachment". I'll call it the "flattery factor".
> As I see it, the flattery factor's effect is to calls attention to a
> person who might otherwise not be noticed (romantically). It also
> creates.. I don't quite know how to describe it - maybe an *initial*
> positive attitude towards him/her. You start inspecting the guy/girl
> as a possible mate. You may of course immediately reject him/her. I
> too have
> been smitten with men who didn't want me <fools!> and vice versa.
> Also, if you're an insecure sort of person (I am) you might not even
> acknowledge to yourself the "latent romantic/physcial interest" you
> have for a person. When the other person shows interest in you, you
> then feel safe to admit to yourself that you do find him/her
> attractive.
> I do not agree with Charlotte about the "much", BTW. From my
> experience the flattery factor certainly has an effect but I wouldn't
> say its a major factor in how (and if) the romantic relationship
> evolves. That has to do with suitability on many different levels.

Thanks -- this explains your thoughts a bit better.  I think what you
term the Flattery Factor figures somewhat in some relationships, but by
no means all of them.  Otherwise everyone's "first crush" would win the
game, right?  <g>

> Now to the (not so) diplomatic allegation of sexism:
> Well, I wrote "Especially women" because it is still more usual for
> men to take the initiative in courting. Its more often *he* who shows
> an interest in *her*. This is an "is" statement, not "should". If it
> is not the case in your experience, in your culture, then "especially
> women" would not be true.

Hmmm .... I still disagree.  I asked my husband . . . his recollection
is that I showed far more interest in him initially than he did in me
(and we were *best friends* at the time).  <g>  We thought about our
circle of friends and family members ... and concluded that it would be
outdated in our minds to say that it is most often the man who takes the
initiative in courting.  I suppose it must be different in your
experience though.

> Inherently I think that men are just as susceptible as women to the
> flattery factor (but see reservation below). I know of several happily
> married couples where it was the woman who "pursued" the man. Although
> Ginny's crush on Harry is too awkward and gauche to be anything but
> embarassing for Harry right now, if she matures and becomes more
> subtle about it, her interest in Harry may certainly play a parallel
> role to Ron's feelings for Hermione (in fact, I think it will).

Or ... if, like me, you believe that Hermione has interest in Harry,
then the Flattery Factor might well affect Harry's appraisal of Hermione
at some later point.  Yes?  <g>

> Reservation: There might be a difference in a man's reaction due to
> the cultural conditioning (which I think still exists in some measure)
> that it is the man who should take the initiative. If a man is brought
> up with this conditioning he might be embarassed and even repulsed by
> a woman's taking an active interest in him (speculation - he might
> perhaps feel feminized? is that the problem men had/have with women on
> top?).

I still maintain that this is an outdated concept for the most part.
Not to say that some men don't still have this hang-up, but I don't
think it's the 1950s anymore.

I definitely don't see Hermione fitting into the role of a woman who
would be unduly swayed by the Flattery Factor.  I see her as a "follow
your heart" kind of gal.  If her heart has special feelings for Ron,
then his interest will certainly aid the whole awkward dating process.
But, if her heart is set on Harry (or someone else or ... just *not* on
Ron for whatever reason), I don't think she'll do anything but let Ron
down gently & with compassion.

Look at Krum as an example -- granted we don't know for sure how things
will play out between Krum & Hermione.  But, my guess is that she was
flattered to go to the Ball with him -- older guy, her first real date,
he's a "big deal", etc.  But, it seemed to me that she was a bit
overwhelmed by how much interest he had in her after the Yule Ball, and
I don't think she had serious intentions with regard to him.  I think
she was happy to go with him to the Ball and liked getting to know him
but wasn't ready for serious relationship & all that.  So .... my guess
is that the Flattery Factor (Krum's obvious interest) probably didn't,
in the end, get him anywhere with her.  I could be proven wrong of
course but that's just my take on it.

Penny


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