SHIP: RE: semi-formal analysis (Naama's logic)

naama_gat at hotmail.com naama_gat at hotmail.com
Mon Feb 5 12:51:16 UTC 2001


No: HPFGUIDX 11731

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> naama_gat at h... wrote:
> 
> > 1. One thing that bugs me a little is that the H/Hers uphold the
> > following:
> > a. (with careful nonchallance) Ron does like Hermione.
> > b. (triumphantly) There's no evidence that Hermione likes Ron back.
> > c. (with gnashing of teeth) There's no evidence of Harry liking
> > Hermione/Hermione liking Harry.
> > AND
> > d. H/H pairing is just as probable as H/R pairing.
> >
> > Does anybody else see a slight logical problem here?
> 
> Well, the above logic is mis-stated as far as *my* logic goes.  Not that
> I speak for all the H/H types out there, but here's what I think.
> 
> I agree with (a).  However, I don't say it with careful non-chalance.
> Hell, there's no getting around it, and it doesn't bother me in the
> slightest: Ron likes Hermione.  It's *obvious*; it's not even a remotely
> debatable topic.
> 
> (b) and (c) -- Here I have some disagreement.  I have never said
> (triumphantly or otherwise) that there's *no* evidence that Hermione
> likes Ron back.  What I've said (and Kathy agrees) is that Hermione is a
> wild card.  The "evidence" that she likes Ron back can be refuted, just
> as the "evidence" that she likes Harry can also be refuted.  Hermione's
> feelings are subject to more than one interpretation.  I just don't
> agree that she likes him back -- I believe the arguments that she likes
> Harry are stronger.  But, I don't deny the very existence of evidence &
> arguments that she likes Ron.
> 
> (c) -- Again, I've never said that there's no evidence that Hermione
> likes Harry.  That's completely the opposite of what I have always
> said.  FITD -- the linchpin of that theory is that Hermione likes Harry.
> 
> As for Harry not liking Hermione -- no need for gnashing of teeth.  I
> don't think Harry is going to be in much condition to date or fall in
> love with anyone in the canon years, truth be told.  I see H/H as a
> post-canon possibility more than anything else.
> 
> I just don't see R/H in the canon, because I believe that Hermione likes
> Harry and not Ron.  :--)  Which brings me to your next point .....
> 
> > If one side of a considered pairing is known to be interested, doesn't
> > that tip the odds a bit? I would say that it does make the
> > relationship more probable, in that one of the necessary conditions is
> > fulfilled.
> > Thats on the side of simple logic. But there are further
> > psychological considerations. The necessary conditions (R likes Her;
> > Her likes R) are not really totally independent of each other. One of
> > Penny's pet peeves is that merely because Ron likes Hermione people
> > immediately assume they will be together, which implies that
> > they ignore what Hermione might be feeling.
> > The thing is that, generally speaking, a person is not indifferent to
> > the romantic interest somebody has for him/her. How often has it
> > happened (especially to women) that they ended falling in love with a
> > guy they hadn't even noticed before he showed interest in them? Part
> > of human nature, isn't it?
> 
> And the H/H'ers have been accused of being too logical, cool-headed and
> analytical about romance pairings??!!  <vbg>
> 
> I've never formally studied logic so I'll leave aside those arguments.
> The psychological arguments that you raise are rather interesting
> though.
> 
> I must ask -- I just can't refrain from asking -- Why "especially
> women"?  Why would women be more easily swayed to fall for someone
> they'd never previously had romantic interest in, just because that
> person showed an interest in them?  That seems .... well, sexist, to me.
> 
> Let's put it another way: how does your above argument play out if the
> situation were reversed?  What if it were clear as day that Hermione had
> a crush on Ron and Ron's feelings were fairly ambiguous.  Would it still
> hold true that Hermione's interest in Ron would be enough to sway him to
> stand up & take notice of her as a romantic possibility?  Or, are you
> really making the argument that *women* can be persuaded to change their
> minds with sufficient wining, dining & roses?
> 
> How does this argument affect H/G?  Does Ginny's obvious crush on Harry
> mean that they are therefore more likely to happen than not simply
> because one party (albeit the female side of the equation) has interest
> in him?  One of the conditions has been met there too.
> 
> I'm really curious.  This doesn't square at all with my own experiences
> (or those of my friends).  Maybe I just had too many broken hearts &
> unrequited love affairs.  Sigh.  But, I sure never found it to be true
> that one could sway a friend to romance when it just wasn't there for
> the other person.  And, conversely, I turned away some guys who were
> quite smitten with me, but I could tell after a date or two that it just
> wasn't going to work.  They didn't have any luck in swaying me.  So
> ..... in my experience, romance has only worked out when both parties
> had at least a latent romantic/physical interest in the other person.
> 
> So, your theory is completely flawed in my personal experience.  And I
> don't know anyone else that would fall within your theory ..... so, can
> you elaborate?  I'm curious.
> 
> Penny
> 
OK. As to my "formal analysis", if you really see more evidence to Her liking H than Her 
liking Ron than you definitely pull the rug from under my feet. My argument is indeed 
irrelevant.

As to my "psychological considerations", I'll try and clarify my position, but first a quote 
from one of my favorite books:

[Elisabeth and her friend Charlotte are discussing Jane's behaving in such a way that her 
feelings for Bingley cannot be discerned.]

It may perhaps be pleasant," replied Charlotte, "to be able to
impose on the public in such a case; but it is sometimes a
disadvantage to be so very guarded.  If a woman conceals her
affection with the same skill from the object of it, she may lose
the opportunity of fixing him; and it will then be but poor
consolation to believe the world equally in the dark.  There is
so much of gratitude or vanity in almost every attachment, that
it is not safe to leave any to itself.  We can all BEGIN freely-- a
slight preference is natural enough; but there are very few of us
who have heart enough to be really in love without
encouragement.  In nine cases out of ten a women had better
show MORE affection than she feels.  Bingley, likes your
sister, undoubtedly; but he may never do more than like her, if
she does not help him on." (Pride and Prejudice)

The real point here is: "there is so much of gratitude or vanity in almost every 
attachment". I'll call it the "flattery factor". 
As I see it, the flattery factor's effect is to calls attention to a person who might 
otherwise not be noticed (romantically). It also creates.. I don't quite know how to 
describe it - maybe an *initial* positive attitude towards him/her. You start inspecting 
the guy/girl as a possible mate. You may of course immediately reject him/her. I too have 
been smitten with men who didn't want me <fools!> and vice versa. 
Also, if you're an insecure sort of person (I am) you might not even acknowledge to yourself 
the "latent romantic/physcial interest" you have for a person. When the other person shows 
interest in you, you then feel safe to admit to yourself that you do find him/her attractive.
I do not agree with Charlotte about the "much", BTW. From my experience the flattery factor 
certainly has an effect but I wouldn't say its a major factor in how (and if) the romantic 
relationship evolves. That has to do with suitability on many different levels.

Now to the (not so) diplomatic allegation of sexism: 
Well, I wrote "Especially women" because it is still more usual for men to take the 
initiative in courting. Its more often *he* who shows an interest in *her*. This is an "is" 
statement, not "should". If it is not the case in your experience, in your culture, 
then "especially women" would not be true.
Inherently I think that men are just as susceptible as women to the flattery factor (but 
see reservation below). I know of several happily married couples where it was the woman 
who "pursued" the man. Although Ginny's crush on Harry is too awkward and gauche to be 
anything but embarassing for Harry right now, if she matures and becomes more subtle about 
it, her interest in Harry may certainly play a parallel role to Ron's feelings for Hermione 
(in fact, I think it will). 

Reservation: There might be a difference in a man's reaction due to the cultural 
conditioning (which I think still exists in some measure) that it is the man who should 
take the initiative. If a man is brought up with this conditioning he might be embarassed 
and even repulsed by a woman's taking an active interest in him (speculation - he might 
perhaps feel feminized? is that the problem men had/have with women on top?).


Naama







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