No need to get shippy about it...

[Kathleen Kelly MacMillan]

No: HPFGUIDX 11109

The Good Ship R/H
"R/H: It Just Makes More Sense"
>From the Quill of Captain Kathy


Ebony said:
>I'm really beginning to think that firm ship preferences are directly related 
to the way we read the books in >general. Everyone on list knows that I'm 
loudly, obnoxiously, and unashamedly H/H.

Really?  ;)  Never would've guessed.

Ebony:
>Here's my stance on those issues. What I'm wondering now is how other H/Hers 
view the positions below, >as opposed to those of other ships and no-shippers.
>1) I'm a SuperHarry advocate.

I've chimed in on this before, but I really really don't like the SuperHarry 
idea.  It may be where JKR is heading, but I honestly hope not.  Like Amy Z , 
I think that it would negate the message of the series and to me, it would 
ring false.  It may be true that Harry is very talented and could be the next 
Dumbledore, but I hope it's not because he's an uber-wizard.

Ebony again:
>2) Although I dislike the Slytherins in canon, I believe that both Draco and 
Snape are redeemable in both >canon and fanon.

Snape, yes.   I trust Dumbledore on that one.   Draco, I'm not so sure.  I 
used to think maybe he would be redeemable and then I reread CoS-during the 
part where he said that he hoped Hermione would be the next to die (while Ron 
and Harry were under the influence of the Polyjuice Potion), it really struck 
me how nasty he is.  Don't get me wrong, I think it's possible, but only if 
something drastic were to happen.  (Cassie did it very plausibly in DD.)  I 
still don't trust him though.

Ebony said:
>3) I identify strongly with Percy. I doubt very seriously that he will become 
a Death Eater.

I also identify strongly with Percy.  And I think his concern over Ron during 
the Second Task alone is evidence that he really does care about his family.  
I don't think he'll go all evil, although I think he will find his loyalties 
and assumptions tested in the future.

Ebony said:
>4) I think that there's more to Hermione than brains. We still don't 
*completely* know from canon why >the Sorting Hat put her into Gryffindor.

I don't think you'll get much opposition from the Good Ship R/H on this one.  
(In fact, I think the one things the two ships can agree on is that we love 
Hermione and want to see her with the right guy-we just disagree over who the 
right guy for her is!)  And I think we have already seen why she is in 
Gryffindor.  Just yesterday I was listening to PoA and the Shrieking Shack 
scene came up.  It occurred to me that Hermione showed incredible bravery in 
standing up to Professor Snape.  ("Professor, it can't hurt to hear what they 
have to say, can it?")  Not to mention the fact that she tried to disarm Snape 
at the same time Ron and Harry did.  Even though she whimpered about it, she 
still did it.  I don't need more proof that Hermione belongs in Gryffindor.  
I'm already satisfied.

Ebony:
>5) Ron, at this point, *really* needs to be onstage for a significant portion 
of Book 5 so that his character >can be developed more. In books 1-2 I grinned 
at him and said "typical boy"... in books 3 and especially 4 >I really 
believed he needed to "get a grip".

Well, I certainly can't argue against more Ron!  But I do think that H/Hers 
tend to give him a bum rap.  Yes, he was at fault, but so was Hermione (in the 
Crookshanks incident) and so was Harry (in the GoF argument).  And, as others 
have pointed out, Ron really is a loyal friend.  But I do agree that he needs 
to "come into his own", so to speak.

Ebony again:
>6) I'm a small Hogwarts/wizarding world advocate.

I think so too.  I have always thought of the Wizarding world (WW) as being 
somewhat like the Deaf World (DW) , in the U.S. at least.  I see a lot of 
parallels.   Both the WW and the DW exist in the context of the larger culture 
and have dealings with it, but have extensive bonds and culture separate from 
the larger culture.  A huge percentage of Deaf children are born to hearing 
parents, and learn Deaf culture from Deaf schools and Deaf adults.  While we 
don't know what percentage of wizard kids have Muggle parents, it seems to be 
a reasonably large amount.  And once the wizard kids go off to Hogwarts, they 
essentially become a part of a separate culture about which their parents know 
very little and in which their parents can never fully participate.  (In my 
spare time---what little I have when I am not working or checking my email!-I 
am studying to become an ASL interpreter, so this is based on that.  I am sure 
someone else with a better knowledge of Deaf Culture could either draw more 
comparisons or tell me why this theory is total rubbish! J)

Ebony:
>7) I have always thought the Wand Order issue was much ado about nothing.

Me, too.  I do agree with Penny that the revised passage doesn't read very 
well, but since I have a copy with the original order, I'll just happily read 
that and ignore the controversy.

Ebony:
>8) I love post-Hogwarts fanfics.

I do too, but I like at-Hogwarts stuff too.  I find them equally interesting 
in different ways.

Ebony:
>I also like fanfics that attempt to explain the scientific and cultural 
features of the magical world. While >shipping fluff and steamy romance fics 
are all well and good, my favorite fics also deal with explaining >important 
existential questions that JKR has not dealt with thus far. Even my own soap 
opera has a lot of >theory-type gobbledygook in the background and in the 
backstory/outline that has *nothing to do with >shipping*. (That might explain 
Kathy's "UberFic" theory--the most famous H/H subplot fics really focus >on 
something besides shipping entirely--H/H is not the cake itself in these fics, 
just the icing.

Well, these are moderately interesting, I guess, though I have to admit I tend 
to skim through the parts with long, theoretical asides.  I prefer 
character-driven fics and ones that delve into the relationships between and 
among the characters (and not just romantic ones-I happen to think that Ron 
and Harry's relationship is very interesting, not in a slashy sense, and part 
of the reason I started my fic with the Goblet of Fire scene was that I really 
wanted to get into their argument from another point of view.  I also think 
Harry and Hermione's friendship is interesting (even if I think Harry's boring 
J) even though I don't think it will develop into a romance.)

Ebony again:
>So I'll echo Penny here... it's not that the R/Hers are less vocal.

Not anymore, at any rate!  <grins at the ever-growing crew of the Good Ship 
R/H>

Ebony wrote:
>A few quick points of clarification:
>-I started the "destroyer" talk. I'm the only one who used the term. Penny's 
earlier post checked me >effectively. My apologies. Chalk it up to my man 
being in uniform... and my own weird and sometimes >culturally-derived sense 
of humor. We'll be a cruise ship from now on.
>--I also started the "disorder" talk. Again, I apologize. My shipmates had 
nothing to do with it. R/Hers >will be simply "misguided" in the future.

For the record, Ebony, I knew you were kidding.  I was a little concerned that 
others wouldn't realize that though, and, as it has been my mission of late to 
encourage more of my R/H compatriots to post, I wanted to try to preserve the 
fun-cruise-ship sense the discussion was taking on.  HP4GU has, unfortunately 
and somewhat unfairly, gotten something of a reputation as Not a Safe Place 
for R/H-ers, and I think it's time to change that.  (As evidenced by the 
recent postings, we're well on our way!)  I think this list is such a wondeful 
group of people and I really value the opinions and insights here (even if 
some of them are misguided <g>), so I want everybody to feel welcome, that's 
all.

Ebony wrote:
>Not at all, Kimberly--one of my favorite people on list is the R/H captain... 
she and I both work with kids >and are addicted to fanfiction. So much for the 
notion of a real war, when we're both "fraternizing with the >enemy" (Ron 
quote! LOL!) <g>

<blushing>Awww, Ebony, flattery will get you everywhere!  You're one of my 
favorite sparring partners too <g>, and btw I really like your fanfic, even if 
some of your ideas make my stomach hurt.  (And, extra points for quoting Ron!)

Cassie wrote:
>I do mind cliches, even if they allow my hero to be happy. Like Carole said, 
it's perfectly possible to have >your hero be happy in an ending that isn't a 
cliche, and wouldn't that be much better?

I know I've already commented on OBHWF as being unlikely in the canon because 
it's too tidy, but I can also see it happening with a JKR twist.  After all, 
she has manged to take other things that have been beaten into the ground by 
other writers and give them a new twist-maybe OBHWF will be the same way.  Who 
knows?

Christy wrote:
>*Panting* Thanks! I usually don't have a problem hanging on but eat enough of 
those Bott's beans and it >can weigh you down!  Aloha all!  I join you from 
the island of Oahu. I can be your graveyard shift in the >crow's nest if you 
have none. *Salute* Reporting for duty and awaiting orders!

Of course!  Just watch out for the ghoul up there-he likes to play tricks.

Penny wrote::
>What if Harry would be "relieved" if Ron & Hermione got together because he 
senses that Hermione >likes him, and he either (a) can't imagine what that 
would do to his friendship with Ron
>(so he hopes she'll just hook up with Ron and the whole problem will "go 
away"),
>or (b) likes her back but is resistant for other reasons (such as putting 
Hermione
>in greater danger -- Harry Potter's girlfriend and a mudblood to boot -- 
she'd be
>a prime target, wouldn't she?).

Actually, I think the first point has some merit-if Harry did think that 
Hermione liked him (of which we have seen so evidence), I could see a scenario 
like that happening.  But I still maintain (and I believe even H/Hers agree on 
this) that there is no evidence that Harry likes Hermione.  I would add that I 
don't see much evidence that he would develop interest in her romantically, 
but I am sure H/Hers would dispute that.

Penny wrote:
>But, are there any H/G shippers who are *not* also R/H shippers? Are there
>specifically any H/G shippers who are fervently H/G and fervently anti-R/H?

That's a good question and better answered by fervent H/G-ers.  As for me, I 
think they would be cute together but I don't think they necessarily belong 
together the way Hermione and Ron do.

I wrote:
> Gosh, thanks. You're welcome to visit anytime...as long as you're nice to
> Ron. Denigration of Weasleys of any kind will not be tolerated on the Good
> Ship R/H. Violators of this rule shall be forced to walk the plank.

And Penny replied:
>Oh well. I guess I won't be allowed a friendly visit even since I don't 
believe
>Ron (or any Weasley) is perfect and therefore immune from criticism (any more 
than
>Harry or Hermione is).

Now, Penny, play fair. J  I never said that criticizing Ron or any Weasley for 
that matter was wrong-we know he's not perfect!  But you know my pet peeve is 
the Ron-is-less-than-Harry (or anyone) argument, and I'm pulling rank as 
captain and banning that from our ship!  Anyone who wants to have a 
Ron-bashing party is welcome to do it on their own liner.

Penny continued:
>The H/H Ship: The Ship of Realism, not Fantasy. Maybe
>that could be *our* new slogan. :--)

(snickers uncontrollably)  Sorry.laughing.too.hard..to.write.response.
<g>

Penny again:
>Well .... "burden of proof" is a legal term. Ahem. You all still haven't met
>your "burden of proof" to show that Hermione likes Ron back.

Sigh.I thought we agreed on that at least, that Hermione's feelings are an 
unknown.  You haven't met the burden of proof to prove that she likes Harry 
either.  What I really meant by my original comment was that, in my experience 
at least, R/H-ers tend not to have the need to convert others that seems to 
accompany H/H-ism.  (no offense intended to anyone here of course!  It's just 
my observation)

Penny wrote:
>I hardly think it will show a one-sided column of only Ron being perceptive &
>attune to her as a person. One glaring example that leaps to mind is that it 
was
>*Harry* and not stubborn Ron who wanted to make up with Hermione in PoA. He 
was
>perceptive enough to notice how unhappy she was and how tired she looked, 
knew
>she'd acted out of caring concern & approached her in the common room on his 
own.

I didn't mean to imply that Ron was perfectly attuned to her-he is still a 
boy,after all!  And the fact is that we really don't know that Ron didn't 
notice how unhappy she was in PoA, do we?  (Just like we really don't know 
what he was thinking during the fight with Harry in GoF.)  I maintain that Ron 
would have been feeling guilty and somewhat torn in both instances, even if he 
didn't know how to show it and was too stubborn to try.

Penny again:
>He no doubt appreciates the fact that it has been Hermione who was more
>steadfastly loyal to him than Ron. And, he most definitely appreciates the 
help
>she gives him with summoning charms & the curses/spells for the 3rd Task.

Oh really?  And what evidence is there of this?  One of the things that 
annoyed me most in GoF was Harry's lack of realization of Hermione's steadfast 
friendship.  The one perspective we do have in the books is Harry's, and I 
didn't see him thinking either of the things you have asserted.

Jim wrote:
>Hermione, like any young woman, wants to be noticed. She definitely wants 
*Ron* to notice. Is she head >over heels for him? Doubt it. Madly in love? 
Hardly. But there's *something*. The opposite of love is not >hate, it's 
indifference. And Hermione is not indifferent.
 
Not surprisingly, I agree.  There is something going on there.

Penny said:
> What I objected to in Trina's message was again relying strictly on evidence 
that suggests that Ron likes >Hermione & just transferring
>reciprocal feelings to Hermione without really analyzing whether that's 
well-placed or not.

And I object to using the Hermione-may-have-feelings-for-Harry argument as a 
basis for H/H for the same reason.  Harry may be boring to me right now, but 
he's a person too!  J

First Mate Mo wrote:
>Exactly. She challenges his lazy butt and just keeps him from slacking off 
too much. Without Ron >Hermione would be all work and no play. He also is able 
to get her to admit when she is wrong.

Good observation, matey.  I never thought about it that way, but you're right.
 You know, I think it's kind of amusing that on both the R/H ship and H/H 
ship, our most compelling (at least to ourselves) arguments are the ones based 
on feelings ("It just feels right to me").  Which is why trying to convert 
each other is a pretty pointless exercise, but I still enjoy the debate!  But 
I think Mo's point brings it home for me:  that's why I am on the R/H.  I like 
Hermione, I like Ron, and I really like how they are together.

Amy Z wrote:
>A side note: each one of the books is marked by serious discord in 
friendships. PS/SS: R&Ha don't even >like Hermione 'til midway through. CoS: 
Harry is the pariah of the school. PA: Serious conflict btw. Ron >and 
Hermione, and several weeks where neither boy talks to her. GF: Harry's the 
pariah again, plus the >conflict with Ron. JKR's creativity in generating and 
resolving problems with friendships is rivalled only >by her creativity in 
imagining plausible ways to get rid of DADA teachers.

This is a great observation.  I think that this is one of the main reasons I 
love HP so much.  Very often, especially in adolescence, we are given the 
message that friendship is not quite as important as other relationships.  But 
as someone pointed out a while ago (I think it was Ebony), the amount of time 
that goes into worrying about getting/keeping friends at that age is 
staggering.  The relationships between and among the characters are definitely 
what keep me coming back to HP.

Amy G
>Ahoy there! Is there room for one more on the Good Ship R/H? Reporting for
>duty Captain Kathy!

Of course!  Welcome aboard!  Karaoke starts on the Lido deck in a few minutes.

Amy G again:
>Someone else brought up about Ginny probably being Hermione's closest female
>friend. It bothers me sometimes that Hermione doesn't seem to have many
>female friends. It doesn't seem that she associates much with Lavender or
>Parvati. Why do you think it is?

Um, if your choice was to hang out with Lavender and Parvati or Harry and Ron, 
which would you pick?  I can identify with that trait of Hermione's very 
easily:  I  didn't have many friends at her age, especially girl friends, 
because most of the girls at my school just weren't interested in the same 
things I was and just didn't seem to be interested in being friends with me.  
And Hermione isn't the kind of person who would change just to get people to 
like her.  Unfortunately that's often what people expect at that age. (at 
least in my experience)

Ginny Love:
 Do you all notice there simply is no V/H ship?
(that's Viktor).

Hey there, Marketing Director!  Yeah, I had noticed that.  Does anyone think 
that H/V is really going to happen, or was it just a device to get Ron's 
feelings to the surface?  In writing my story, I have found that I actually am 
really enjoying the H/V scenes (maybe because it's nice to have someone who 
actually appreciates Hermione).  I compare Viktor to a guy I worked with when 
I was in college: he was 10 years older than I was and asked me out, which I 
found flattering but very creepy (I was only 20 at the time-10 years makes a 
big difference then, at least it did to me).  He may be perfectly nice, but I 
never got the sense that Hermione was too interested in him romantically.

And, for the record, I really like your theory that Ginny's knowledge of Tom 
Riddle might come in handy later.  And I do agree that it could be a link 
between her and Harry.

Ebony wrote:
>Good fiction writing is all about "raising the stakes" at strategic points. 
In all my training as a creative >writer, I can't see how the OBHWF scenario 
contributes to any stakes-raising. ("Oh, great!" said Harry, >holding Ginny's 
hand and beaming at Ron and Hermione. "I knew you two liked each other.") It 
may be >smile-inducing, but it does nothing to raise the stakes. On the other 
hand, I humbly suggest that H/H >causes an immediate stakes-raising in 
canon--which is why most non-H/H fans--even so-called no->shippers--are 
disquieted by the very idea of it. >>

And Rina responded:
>Well, yes, H/H would raise the stakes. But in it's own way, so would H/R. I'm 
not sure if it's so much >H/Rs are disquieted by change, so much as they have 
interpreted scenes and lines in a way that leads them >to H/R. Plus, this is 
JKR. I don't think she's going to go the easy route on any story or direction 
this may >take. <g> No matter who Hermione ends up with - Harry, Ron, random 
guy, or no one - it's almost >guaranteed it will be some big plot thing. She 
doesn't really do something for absolutely no reason, and I >don't think this 
would be different.

I agree with Rina.  As I have pointed out before, I don't think that OBHWF 
necessarily has to be neat and tidy (*ahem*  did I mention "The Best Man" 
series?), and that JKR is certainly capable of making it interesting.  AND, 
it's true that R/H raises the stakes as well, just in a different way.  I, for 
one, am not "disquieted" by the idea of H/H; in fact, I think it's rather dull 
and too HGTG <grins at First Mate Mo>.  I never understood why H/H-ers think 
R/H is "the easy way out" or some such.

Rina wrote:
>Okay, I don't know HOW, but this little bit inspired me to write a scene for 
a fic. LOL Lovely little >angsty, dramatic action scene followed by Harry 
saying, "I knew you two liked each other!" <g> I think >Ron snaps back, "Why 
the hell didn't you tell ME that?" And it definitely raised stakes. LOL

Oooo, I want to read this Rina!

Ebony (I think) wrote:
<<(It's funny that H/H and R/H are so diametrically opposed that both ships 
would rather see Ron and >Harry slashed than for the other ship to prevail! 
What?)>>

It's not that I would rather see Ron/Harry than H/H; it's just that I think 
it's more plausible.  I see more evidence to support a Ron/Harry pairing than 
I do for H/H.

Rina wrote:
>Hey, Captain Kathy, can I be amabassador for the good ship R/H? LOL I don't 
think there's a pairing I >wouldn't go for.

Of course!  Make sure to take lots of alcohol when you visit the Uboat 
noshipper though---sounds like their customs demand lots of libations.

I wrote:
> Perhaps we should also advertise for a ship's psychologist to help out with 
all that gentle deprogramming >of H/H-ers?

And Kelly responded:
>I'll volunteer. I've already stocked up on Professor Lupin's patented 
"Dementor-Away" brand chocolate. >Works equally well on those chronic symptoms 
of H/H ship-dom. "Here. Eat it. It'll help..." (Said in my >most Lupinesque 
voice.)

You're on!  Hear that, H/H-ers?  Counselor Kelley is ready to see you now.<g>

Oh, dear, from the cars honking and fireworks going off outside, I am assuming 
the Ravens just won the Superbowl.  (I've been seeing people with purple hair 
all week.I just can't get into at at all.  In fact I went to my parents 
Superbowl party wearing my team's hat: "Gryffindor Quidditch"  And actually, I 
checked my email in the other room while my relatives all shouted at the TV in 
the other room.  And they laugh at me for laughing out loud at the computer 
screen when someone posts something funny!)

kimberly wrote:
>And Ron/Hermione seem like fun to me because neither of them *do* bottle 
things up - they are both very >up-front with their emotions, and, while 
volatile, I think it is healthy. When a point of contention comes >up, having 
a wild row, getting it all out, and then getting over it and moving on to work 
together toward a >common goal is not a bad thing if that is in your nature, 
and it seems to be so for both of them.

I have been trying to find a book I read right after I got married that 
postulated that there are 3 basic kinds of marriages: "Calm" (not the word the 
author used, but that was basically what he/she meant); "Volatile" (that I 
remember exactly); and "Dysfunctional".  This author's position was that only 
the third type was unhappy.  In the Calm type, the partners do just about 
anything to achieve consensus and very often are uncomfortable with conflict.  
In the Volatile type, the partners often fight and scream at one another, but 
then move on.  In the Dysfunctional type, the screaming and fighting is about 
sabotaging each other, not getting things out ing the open.  I remember this 
well because my husband and I most definitaly fall into the second category 
and I felt it wasn't "right" somehow until I read that and realized that it 
works for us.  People in the first type would probably not feel comfortable 
with that, but that's okay.  Anyway, the point here is that R/H would 
definitely be the second type.  Maybe that's why it appeals to me.

Whew, that was really long.  What can I say?  Just so much good stuff to 
respond to!  Oh, and about the suggestion for the R/H-H/G catamaran, well, if 
they're floating alongside us we can visit easily, don't you think?

A question: are there any R/H-ers who are violently opposed to H/G?  Just 
wondering.  It seems like most R/Hers I have talked to have either been 
fervently H/G along with R/H, or don't really care one way or the other.

Long live the Good Ship R/H!

Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who is hoping her subject line doesn't qualify as political