[HPforGrownups] SHIP: Hermione & the Boys

[Kathleen Kelly MacMillan]

No: HPFGUIDX 15340

Oooo, goody, shipping threads!  I hate it when I work late, because everybody 
says what I was going to say before I get a chance to check my email. :(  You 
will notice, however, that this doesn't stop me from responding...

Penny wrote:
>There's plenty of H/H evidence
>in GoF too, you know. Her answer was quite ambiguous in my mind.
>Hermione's feelings are quite open to more than one interpretation.<g>

Plenty of H/H evidence...well, that's open to debate.  But we already know 
that our interpretations differ greatly, so I won't go any further on that 
point (remembers the Great Semicolon Debate and shudders).

For what its worth, I think JKR's answer to Zsenya's question <waves at 
Zsenya> WAS ambiguous...but I suspect it was more to keep things that are 
"under the surface" (so to speak)...well, under the surface.  I know, I know, 
it's blindingly obvious that Ron is jealous and likes Hermione, but, as star 
pointed out awhile ago, it never actually SAYS so in the books.  We as adults 
can see it clearly (and some of us see Hermione's feelings as being one way or 
the other as well).  But all we really have is subtext to go on, either way.  
And subtext, apparently, is in the eye of the beholder. :)

JKR's answer also makes me think of one of Peg Kerr's excellent posts from way 
back on secrets--on how respecting others' secrets is a vital part of being a 
"good guy".  Here's part of the post: (This is in the Files section, under 
"Essays--Peg Kerr", and it's a fascinating essay which I highly recommend, 
btw):

>Dumbledore, Harry's guide, seems to be teaching him that secrets are best
>kept until they are "ripe," but they must told when the time is right.
>Significantly, they must be told by the person who the secret belongs to.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that I see JKR sort of "protecting" 
the characters' secrets too, when she gives ambiguous answers like that (and I 
am referring to more than just shipper-type questions here, though obviously 
some strong emotions are involved there).

Penny wrote:
>Like Heidi said, some of us think the fact that she kissed Harry at
>>>the end of GoF could be a signal that she has romantic interest in
>Harry.

I don't want to get into the whole KISS debate again, because we've been 
through it all before, but I just want to say 2 things on this:

a) I was under the impression that most H/H-ers felt that THE KISS was fairly 
weak as H/H evidence.  But perhaps I am wrong.

b) I personally feel that interpreting THE KISS as romantic completely takes 
away from the story at this point (and I am not just saying this because of 
the ship I captain).  The mood and tone of the book at that point is one of 
watching and waiting.  I found the end of GoF especially creepy because harry 
is, in essence, leaving everyone who cares about him just at the time when he 
needs them most.  To put a romantic spin on that kiss, IMO, also negates 
Hermione's sensitivity.  To me, it was quite clear that she kissed Harry on 
the cheek because she knew he needed support.  The "did something she had 
never done before" part, to me, just emphasized that Trio is getting older, 
and they are going to face new trials and deal with them in more mature ways.

Wow, for not having much to say on that, I sure said a lot. ;)

Penny again:
>She couldn't be bothered to talk to Viktor Krum, who had
>just saved her from the lake & declared his feelings for her, because
>she was too busy cheering for & talking to *Harry*.

OK, if I were 14 and had some guy just declare his feelings to me after a VERY 
public display of his affection, and I was unsure how I felt about him and was 
feeling really uncomfortable, I would find someone else to talk to quickly 
too.  And I might busy myself cheering for my best friend as an excuse to 
avoid talking to lover-boy too.  But maybe that's just me.

Catherine wrote:
>Regarding Krum, his jealousy of Harry is understandable, whether
>founded or not. <snip>. It is highly unlikely that Krum even noticed Ron's
>existence, apart from his being Harry's friend. He sees Harry as a rival,
>period, whether as a competitor in the Tournament, or over Hermione - the
>two have naturally come together.

You took the words right out of my mouth, Catherine.  Whenever people cite 
Viktor's question as H/H evidence, I just think, "Huh?".  It seems clear to me 
that his jealousy is a product of Hermione talking about Harry (a point which 
B. and others have covered very well already, so I'll leave it alone here), 
Rita Skeeter's articles, and knowing that Harry is The Famous Harry Potter.  I 
don't think it would even occur to him that the red-haired kid could be a 
rival.  I think Viktor, like a lot of other people, underestimates Ron.

In fact, I think it more than likely that a Hermione-who-likes-Ron would *not* 
talk about Ron in front of Viktor.  She's keeping that to herself.  Besides, 
wouldn't it be uncomfortable to mention the guy you like in front of the one 
who is pursuing you wildly?  (And vice versa--remember how uncomfortable she 
is talking about Viktor in front of Ron.)

And I still think the fact that Ron shows no obvious jealousy over the 
articles linking Harry and Hermione indicates the lack of romantic H/H tension 
(the Ron in my story notwithstanding <g>).

Catherine wrote:
> (By the way, what is a Shipper?)

LOL!  You are, dear. ;)  A lovely stateroom is being prepared for you aboard 
the Good Ship R/H as we speak...

Catherine wrote:
>(But please don't beat me up over this, I'm not objecting to H/H,
>just think the other is more likely).

Oooo, I'm objecting!  Go ahead, beat me up!  (Kidding!  I'm kidding!  Don't 
ram the ship, please!)

Cassie wrote:
>Really? I've never gotten any sense that Hermione and Ginny were in
>any way close, and have always felt a little bad for Hermione that
>she doesn't have female friends. I don't get the slightest sense that
>she confides in Ginny -- there's never been a single scene in which
>we see her hanging out with Ginny casually and for fun; she never
>sits with her at meals or in the common room or the library.

She does hang out with her at Burrow, and at the World Cup.  And we do see 
them eating breakfast together, as someone mentioned...and I still think the 
fact that Ginny knew about Hermione's date is very telling.  After all, if 
Hermione hadn't meant it to be secret, wouldn't someone else have known and 
told Ron?  (Ooo, imagine if Fred or George had gotten their hands on that 
information...ooo, fanfic idea forming...)

Penny wrote:
>She's also, IMO, not mad because he hadn't noticed she was a girl. She
>was mad because he wanted the prettiest girl he could find and then when
>he wasted too much time & got rejected to boot, he suddenly turned to
>"good old Hermione."

I agree and disagree here.  I think it's pretty clear she's angry that he 
hadn't noticed she's a girl.  But I also agree that she was mad about asking 
her at the last minute after the pair of trolls remark.  I think that the fact 
that he did it so idiotically ("You *are a girl...") just made her madder.

Penny wrote:
>Well, she eats all her meals with Harry; they walk to class together;
>they sit in class together; they leave class together -- there is no
>mention of her spending much time with Ron.

Again , I quote: 
"Hermione was furious with the pair of them; she went from one to the other, 
trying to force them to talk to each other..." (GoF, UK ed, p. 277)

I think it's pretty clear that she was spending time with BOTH of them during 
that fight.  Perhaps her time was a little more weighted toward Harry because 
he didn't have anyone else to hang out with and Ron did.  Remember, Hermione 
knew firsthand how hard it was to have your best friends ignore you--it had 
happened to her the year before.  I think the way she handles it says a lot 
for her maturity level and sensitivity.

Also, in all the books, I think that Ron and Hermione spend a lot more time 
together than we see.  Pretty much every time Harry is by himself, Ron and 
Hermione are together.  Whenever Harry comes back from Quidditch practice, or 
Dementor-defense lessons, or whatever, Hermione and Ron are in the common room 
together.

Amy Z:
>But it has enough freight that if H/H becomes real, we'll all look back and
>say "Yeah! Viktor said she talked about him a lot!" (All of us
>except Kathy aka Elanor, of course, who will have hanged herself from
>the yardarm or whatever it is they hanged Billy Budd from.)

LOL!  Oh, dear, am I *that* vehement?  :)  I suppose I am.  Oh well.  Maybe 
Hermione will run off to Bulgaria with Viktor Krum after all, and Penny and I 
can have a suicide pact. <g>

Scott:
>Hermione was interesting in Krum (IMO) because he as older, and a
>star and yet he was interested in study-a-holic Hermione. He saw her
>as a girl, and she probably liked that because it was/is a role she
>rarely plays.

I agree (mark that down Scott!).  I think Hermione found Viktor attractive 
because he was nice, sweet, smart, and liked her.  A lot.  When you hang out 
with a couple of clods who don't notice your newly-repaired teeth, and don't 
even notice you're a *girl*, it must be wonderful to suddenly have someone 
think you're the bee's knees.  And show it. (That part is key.)  Also, I think 
Hermione doesn't want to hurt Viktor.  It's not that she doesn't like him; she 
just doesn't like him as much as he likes her.  I think if H/V were to happen, 
it would happen because Viktor would keep pursuing Hermione, and she would 
just...let him.  But I suspect Hermione's got more gumption than to let that 
go too far, because she knows Viktor would get hurt.  (And because she's 
really in love with someone else...)

Scott wrote:
>I could go one but this is my general point. Ron is overtly jealous
>but doesn't realise it. Hermione just seems to be suprised at Ron's
>reactions. She can't believe that he is that upset over her going
>with Krum. If she had planned to go with Krum just to make Ron
>jealous would she really be so suprised at his reaction?

Unless she just sort of assumed that Ron would ask her, and went with Viktor 
because he asked first.  I don't think she necessarily went with Viktor to 
make Ron jealous; I think maybe she just realized that Ron was never going to 
ask her, so she might as well go with the nice Bulgarian Quidditch star who 
asked her.  And she could be surprised at Ron's jealousy because she assumed 
that he wasn't interested in her, since he didn't ask to the ball.  I'm not 
saying it necessarily happened this way.  Just that it could have. :)

Scott wrote:
>Just for clarification this DOES belong here and not on OT-Chatter
>right?

*giggles* Like canonical shipping will be declared off-topic while Penny is 
Listmom! :)


Cap'n Kathy of the Good Ship R/H
AKA Elanor Gamgee
getting her sealegs again...