Framing Frank (Was TMR's training; relative ages; Hagrid Hist ory)

[Hillman, Lee]

No: HPFGUIDX 18782

> 
>    Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:41:21 -0000
>    From: "Florence" <fgcjnk at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: TMR's training; relative ages; Hagrid History
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:
> > I take the 50 years to be an "approximate" 
> figure.
> > I believe the Chamber of Secrets was opened slightly more than 50 
> years
> > before HP finds it; that is, in 1941 or '42 (possibly even earlier),
> > allowing Tom to finish up school and find Grindelwald before 
> Dumbledore
> > defeated him in 1945. After Grindy's demise, presumably, 
> Tom went on 
> a
> > quest.... Okay, a dark quest, but still a quest. 
> > 
> 
> I don't think this can be true because in GoF Frank Bryce has come 
> back from the war and seemingly worked for the Riddles for some time 
> (from the villagers comments) before the Riddles are killed.  Now 
> assuming he was injured near the start of the war and worked about 4 
> years as gardener before the Riddles murders then the Riddles were 
> killed around 1944.  I think V got his dark arts knowledge 
> mainly from 
> the restricted section of the library and his own original mind (he 
> was after all a brilliant student).
> 
> Florence 
> 
In GoF Ch. 1 (US), it says, "Frank had come back from the war with a very
stiff leg and a great dislike of crowds and loud noises, and had been
working for the Riddles ever since."

It gives no indication how long. When they talk about Frank's history, it's
clear that he grew up in Little Hangleton, too, so much of what they have to
say may go back further than his time as a soldier. It's possible, as you
say, that he could have had four or even five years' service with the
Riddles and it still be '43, if he was injured very early. In short, I don't
think the timing rules out the possibility of the chamber having been opened
earlier. Tom could also have killed the Riddles _before_ graduating
Hogwarts. So the 50 years can still be taken either as an approximate date
or an absolute.

The timing looks something like this:

If CoS really opened 50 years previous, then 1942 (or '43, but for the sake
of argument we'll use '42). Tom is in 5th year, so b. 1927 (Hagrid 1929). If
he murdered his father after graduating, then that occurred in 1944, exactly
50 years before GoF. Given this timeline, Frank had a _maximum_ tenure of 6
years with the Riddles and Tom had a _maximum_ amount of time to study with
Grindy of 1 year. However, the murders could still have occurred anytime
after 1942 (Tom committing them before graduating, but after opening CoS).

CoS 51 years ago: 1941, Frank has _max_ of 5 years as gardener and Tom has
_max_ of 2 years with Grindy. If Tom killed them the summer after the CoS,
then Frank had max of only 3 years' service.

CoS 52 years ago: 1940, Frank has between 2 and 4 years' service (depending
on timing of injuries and murders); Tom has _max_ of 3 years with Grindy. 

Because we don't know exactly when the murders occurred in relation to Tom's
age, there's a lot of wiggle room.

However, I will further modify my theory to state that the Tom could also
have opened the chamber years earlier, graduated, gone to Europe, and
returned without anyone knowing it to kill the Riddles, then gone back to
Europe to delve deeper after Grindlewald's capture/defeat. It's not as neat
a timeline, owing to the relative age of Tom and Tom Sr., but it depends
heavily on what the Little Hangletons consider "young" when describing Tom
Sr. Tom Jr. could still look like a teen depending on what age retarding
spells he's using. How's that for muddying the waters?

Gwendolyn Grace
Who really has to get some paid work done today....