A little ADMIN reminder -- Literature Classifications -- SHIPping

[Penny & Bryce]

No: HPFGUIDX 29479

Hi --

Wow, 2 of my favorite subjects going this morning.

First, I see that the Movie is possibly garnering us some new members --
welcome!  I do have a few start-of-term in HP4GU announcements to make,
however, before we all jump in:

1.  Read the Homepage for the "10 Commandments" of posting to this list
(no one liners, be accurate with subject headings, combine shorter posts
into one message, absolutely no off-topic posts, etc.).

2.  Read our Netiquette & VFAQs -- links at the end of this message

3.  Look for a welcome letter from your List Elf (and please read all
material they send you -- it's not yahoo form garbage).

Thank you & onward with discussions --

LITERATURE CLASSIFICATIONS -- I am still unpersuaded that these are
childrens' books.  :--D

David wrote a nice post explaining that we probably need to know what is
& isn't childrens' lit before we can decide how to shelve HP.  It's
obviously a tough issue.  I do want to point out that I don't believe
that classifying HP as childrens' lit is somehow a denigration of its
literary merits.  I just don't believe it *is* childrens' lit.  In terms
of what is & isn't childrens' lit, I may have to fall back on Justice
Steven's definition of obscenity: "I know it when I see it."  Yep.  I
know it when I see it, and HP isn't it.  Not IMO anyway.

David said:

 > a) The alleged darkness.  They just aren't that dark. Are we going
 > to  see unhappy, draining marriages? Will we see Winky gradually go
 >  to  pieces under the influence of Butterbeer?  How will Neville's
 > parents  be handled?  Will McGonagall commit suicide at a random
 > point,  because of her as-yet-concealed depression?  Will Ron drift
 >  away from  Harry, unable to handle his fame and gifts?  I find it
 > hard to  summarise, but I think the darkness is all 'within' the
 > framework JKR  has set up - it is not 'part' of the framework.

I'm not positive I understand that last sentence David.  But, I don't
know why we have to have sex, divorce, substance abuse or suicide in
order for the story to be "dark" or have "dark elements."  I do trust
JKR's statements after GoF that GoF is just the tip of the iceberg in
terms of the dark aspects.  It may be a wait & see game as to how dark
it will all go & what the end conclusion will be.  We do know that
Dumbledore said people will have to choose and what is easy won't always
be right.  This holds hints of lots of juicy stuff as far as I can see.

 > AFAIK, she reserves most of her  public appearances for children and
 >  appears to take most interest in  that.

I don't think that's all that unusual.  The publishers market the books
to children (missing the boat they are but that's beside the point).
Her publishers, publicist & agent likely bear full responsibility for
creating her public appearance schedule; I don't know that we can say
that her schedule reflects her personal preference.  Besides, the kids
all ask the "easy" questions (why did you become a writer, who is Ron
based on, what do you think of the movie, etc.).  Adult questioners
other than say Katie Couric or Rosie would challenge her more.

Cindy said:

 > First, the writing style, particularly of the first three books.  I 
can't
 >  assess the "grade level" of the writing (although I am sure  someone
 >  on the list could), but they struck me as written in a  straightforward
 >  and simple way, accessible for children.  This is not  a bad
 > thing, as I don't do well with flowery prose myself.  However,  that
 >  writing style makes it more accessible to children, and so makes  me
 >  think of them as children's books.

Her style is simple prose in some senses, yes.  But, she does revel in
the English language & its nuances IMO.  So much of her word play would
indeed go unnoticed by average readers in the target 9-12 category too
(IMO).  Our regular filker Caius has had the following to say about
JKR's writing style (it's in the FAQ because I liked it so much):

 > "I've skimmed through several volumes of Grisham and Cornwall in
 > search of a semi-colon. I've yet to find one. Grisham and Cornwall
 > write a tedious series of short, declarative sentences that might
 > (ignoring content) fit right into The Weekly Reader or The
 > Berenstein Bears. Rowling, on the other hand, rejoices in the
 > beauty of the English language, and fully exploits its dramatic
 > potential in her dialogue -- take any page at random in any of her
 > books, and we find an array of hyphens, ellipses and semi-colons."


I agree with Caius!  I also don't think she dumbs down her language, 
which is another reason I don't think she's writing specifically for 
children.

> In GoF, for instance, a great deal of
> conflict time is spent with two characters not speaking to each
> other, who soon kiss and make up.  Interesting and entertaining, but
> hardly the sort of gutwrenching conflict often seen in "adult"
> drama.  

That's hardly the main conflict of GoF though.  I sure don't think that 
the Harry/Ron fight took up a "great deal" of the conflict time.  Harry 
spends most of the entire book worried about why his name was entered 
into the Goblet, what the Bertha Jorkins disappearance might have to do 
with it all, how he's going to survive the Tasks of the Tournament & 
what the death of Mr. Crouch Sr. means.  The Harry/Ron fight was small 
potatoes all right but small potatoes within the context of the larger 
plot points going on.

I don't intend to refute each of Cindy's "no consequences" examples, but 
this one I can't resist:

> Harry meets with Krum near the forest contrary to
> Sirius' instructions, and nothing happens to him.

Sirius yells at him later (through owl post though as I recall).  And, 
he gets drawn into a conflict that leaves him more worried than ever 
(discovery of stunned!Krum & the dead Crouch).

> These things don't bother me at
> all, but they strike me as evidence of fiction geared to children
> because we aren't left with uncomfortable loose ends.

I'm really not sure what you mean by this.  HP has no "loose ends"?  Can 
you explain more what you mean there?

As for plot complexity, I'm glad to see that we at least see Cindy 
acknowledging that the plot complexities point more towards adult lit 
than childrens' lit.  I do agree.  Many of our members have commented in 
the past that when they questioned young cousins, students, etc., they 
found that the kids had missed some pretty major parts of the plot.  GoF 
has *alot* going on in it.

> Is there "good" adult fiction in which children are the protagonist?

Heather gave lots of great examples.  I would add Oliver Twist, Great 
Expectations ... just glanced at my shelf.  Actually, I see a fair bit 
of similarities between Dickens & Rowling now that I think about it.

I think Heather is right that in the end HP may be a split series.  But 
what I hate to hear is "well these are "just" childrens' books after all 
so JKR won't do this or that."  I also, when you get right down to it, 
mostly hate the relegation of the books from the main bestseller list as 
a consequence of how they get labelled.  If they are the bestselling 
books in the country, then they should be reflected on the main 
bestseller list.  Especially since it's already been established that 
adults are reading them in large numbers.

I guess there are a fair few adults who read new childrens' books "just 
because."  I still say that *millions* of them don't though.  The sales 
figures just do not, IMO, support the argument that they can be 
classified as strictly, purely childrens' lit.

SHIPPING -- Briefly.  Joshua, I admire your tenacity & your logic.  I'd 
love to see it proven that Hermione is Ron's "Ms. Wrong."  <g>  Go for it!

Penny