Official Philip Nel Discussion Question #4--Will HP become classic?

[Penny Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 38253

Hi --

Okay, I'm going to try & get this off again (first draft was lost when the computer froze up earlier this week).  

Abigail commented:

<<<I think we can all agree that neither universal popularity nor universal 
critical acclaim can be considered criteria for calling a book a classic.>>>

I agree completely with this.  I think this business of defining what a "classic" is can be quite tricky, and it ends up being arbitrarily subjective as best I can tell.  Bookstores used to have a section called "Literature" (or maybe even "Classics") which housed all the books that were likely to be assigned in English lit classes.  Strangely, of course, now that I think back on it (I worked in a bookstore off & on for all of high school & most of college), hardly anything more recent than 1930s was shelved in this section.  Steinbeck (and of course Hemingway, Fitzgerald, etc.) works were shelved there, but Vonnegut, Fowles, Salinger, Kesey & lots of other authors were shelved under general fiction, presumably because of some "longevity" factor?  Similarly, I recently noticed that one finds the "Anne of Green Gables" books in the Childrens' Classics area.  But, that Childrens' Classics area does *not* include the Little House books (harumph!), E.B. White & other more recent books of enduring allure to generations of children.  So, who decided that LM Montgomery is a classic author but Laura Ingalls Wilder isn't?  

I agree with some of the factors that Gwen identified for a "classic," including the ability to stand up to repetitive reads, ability to be read on a number of different levels, appeal to a wide-ranging audience, etc.  I can't do much more to expound on that point, since, as I note above, I find the classification of books in this manner to be completely arbitrary & subjective.  Ditto for genre.  I suppose in the end, I agree with Gwen & would put HP in the category of fantasy more than any other.  I hate when people label HP as "boarding school genre."  I didn't think there even was such a "genre" as "boarding school books" until some of my friends who have been reluctant to read HP made that reference (based, of course, on hearsay & what limited amount they've read in media coverage about HP).  :--D

Abigail again:

<<<now for a question that makes some sense to me - how long-lived will the books be?  I'd say the odds are stacked in favor of the books surviving at least another generation of kids (and whatever the books' appeal to adults today, I think they will survive as children's books if only because it will soon be impossible to reach puberty without having read them).>>>>

Ah, here we must part company.  :--)  I think in the final analysis the series as a whole will be classed as a hybrid & will be shelved in both the "young adult" area & in the adult fiction area (although perhaps in fantasy?).  I agree with Gwen that while the first 2 books are more juvenile, the series as a whole can't really be put into that category.  I love this quote from Gwen's excellent post on this subject:

"For me, it's the transition of the children from a world that
only matters to them (that is, a world where they are at the center)
to a world that is clearly much more vast than they are, that makes
their journey to adulthood begin. And that in turn is what pushes the
story out of the realm of children's books, for me. PoA begins to let
us in on the nuances of these adult relationships, and the things
going on in the world outside Hogwarts. GoF continues this trend. They
create a need for the children to figure out how they are going to fit
in that much larger, much more dangerous, much darker world. How are
they going to change it? And how much more will we learn about their
elders in the meantime?"

Gwen finally articulated what I've been trying to put my finger on for so long.  POA is my favorite book (with GoF as a close 2nd), and I think that she's hit on why this is perhaps so: we see Harry's world expanding and we start to see relationship complexities that really start to draw the reader in even more.  :::grins happily at Gwen::::

Abigail again:
  
<<< How many people have I seen in this group and others, mention that they have given copies of the books to many children in their family or acquainance?>>>

Actually, I've given HP as gifts *many* times, but never to children so far.  I've given the set (or at least PS/SS) to numbers of adult friends and family members.  Of course, I also don't have any child relatives or children of friends who are the right age to receive the books necessarily.  But, I don't think that "spreading the gospel of HP" can be said to be limited to giving them to children.

I also agree with Gwen that the books have tremendous cross-generational appeal.  I think the broad & unprecedented cross-generational appeal is perhaps the single factor most likely to spur the books into eventually being labelled as "classics."  I agree with Abigail that universal critical acclaim & universal popularity/mass appeal do not automatically create a "classic"; however, I think the combination of critical acclaim (or critical attention really more than acclaim) as well as the remarkable popular appeal of the HP books will eventually propel them into the ranks of "classic literature," no matter whether you define them as "childrens" books or "young adult" or a hybrid or fantasy or even adult general fiction for that matter.  They defy genre and classification in my mind.      

Eileen argued however:

<<<Well..... First of all, I don't think the cross-generational thing is 
entirely off the ground yet. Way too many adults who don't bother with 
kids' books, and are buying their kids HP because the HP books are 
hyped.>>>>

Really?  I think not only of the marketing research that shows that something approaching 50% of the HP books are being sold to people over age 14, but also of the *huge* number of adult friends & acquaintances who've read the books (most often not on my urging ...really).  I constantly go to parties or dinners or church events or recruiting functions for my husband's firm and find that over half the adults in attendance have read at least one HP book (and 9 times out of 10, it's *not* because they have kids).  I recall being at one recruiting party before GoF came out & was happily learning that one of my favorites amongst Bryce's partners was a huge HP fan.  We were happily chattering away when another woman came up & joined our conversation & so on ...until we had a group of about 5 people planning to go to the GoF party together.  At that point, Bryce called over to find out what we were talking about & when someone shouted, "We're talking about Harry Potter," another guy shouted out "Oh, damn, those are the best books I've read in ages."  This is at a *law firm* recruiting party.  None of these people are obsessed enough to join a group like this, but they've read & enjoyed the books & are eager for more.  They're happy to talk about it with other adults; they're happy to pass on a great recommendation.  I think there's absolutely enormous cross-generational appeal!

Eileen wrote:

<<<Similarily, I am amazed by how prescient GoF has turned out to be. I 
am very glad for JKR that she published GoF before September 11th. If 
afterwards, she would have forever been accused of "making 
connections": something that I expect to see critics saying when OotP 
comes out.>>>>>

I too was oddly comforted by the parallels in GoF to our post-Sept 11th world.  Very prescient indeed .... (agreed that it's wonderful that JKR published that before the Sept 11th events).

Penny
(silently cheering that she got this off before the week's end after all ....though I didn't get to do as thorough a job as I originally hoped)



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