[HPforGrownups] WW law/ Fourth Man

[Edblanning at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 38280

Katherine:
>          Interesting thought strikes me here: *are* there lawyers
> in the WW? There's obviously some sort of legal structure or there
> couldn't have been trials, but, having consulted the relevant
> chapter of GoF, I don't see any trace of legal representation of
> the prisoners in the trials Harry witnessed via the Pensieve.
> This may simply mean that wizards don't have lawyers; when a person
> can be given Veritaserum to make them tell the absolute truth,
> lawyers may simply be superfluous. Or it may mean that the right
> to a legal counsel was temporarily suspended for the trials of
> DEs (not an unlikely situation, given that the MoM authorised the
> use of the Unforgivables against them).
> 

It *is* an interesting question, although I don't think we can answer it from 
the evidence of the Pensieve scenes.
Karkaroff is already convicted and has been brought from Azkaban to give 
information which he hopes will get him let off.
Bagman has also already apparently been found guilty and has returned for 
sentencing.
The same also perhaps applies to the four accused in the Longbottom affair. 
JKR uses rather confusing language. Crouch says that they are *accused* 
rather than *found guilty* of the crimes, but then clearly goes on to 
sentence. I suppose that possibly they were not tried, as happened in Sirius' 
case, but I have always supposed, on the basis of the Bagman scene, that the 
evidence had already been heard.

The WW seems to have a rather medieval way of going on about things. I 
wouldn't on that basis expect lawyers (at least, not defence lawyers) in our 
modern sense, but I would expect that the accused might have some kind of 
supporter, a 'prisoner's friend' sort of thing. There presumably has to be 
some kind of mechanism by which the accused can defend himself, call 
witnesses,etc, which would be pretty difficult from inside Azkaban.

And we know absolutely nothing about the way civil cases might be conducted. 
So far we've only seen the equivalent (possibly) of Crown prosecutions. Is 
there, indeed, a legal mechanism for gaining redress in the case of a 
personal dispute?

The only other quasi-legal incident we've seen (IIRC) is the case of Buckbeak 
being brought before the Commitee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures. 
There, Hagrid had to make his own defence on behalf of Buckbeak.

............................................

Cindy:
> OK, how about this?  I'm not quite finished with Fourth Man.  You 
> remember Fourth Man, don't you?  Uh, how would I describe Fourth 
> Man?  Um.  Geez, where *are* the Fourth Man experts when you need 
> them?  Me, I majored in ToadKeeper with a minor in Banging.  I'm not 
> too good with basic Fourth Man.  

I take it the word banging doesn't have the same connotations in the US as it 
does here? Or are you referring to what Sirius and Arabella have been up to? 
;-)

<snip explanation of Fourth Man>

> 
> Or could it be that Avery is the head DE?  After all, he doesn't just 
> plead his own case.  In the middle of this little display, he 
> shrieks "Forgive us all!"  After this, Voldemort takes mercy on 
> Wormtail and doesn't torture anyone else.  Why would Voldemort go 
> easy on Lucius in particular, when Voldemort knows Lucius and Avery 
> handled Voldemort's downfall in the same exact way -- pleading 
> Imperius?  So Avery's little self-sacrifice ploy worked, didn't it?  
> 
> <snip>

> I think we need a new, non-SYCOPHANT Fourth Man Variant -- Tough Guy 
> Fourth Man, based on Avery's successful plea that his fellow DEs 
> should receive mercy.  
> <snip>
> Well, Tough Guy Fourth Man is also quite smart.  Number Two guys in 
> the Evil Overlord organization are *always* smart, aren't they?  He's 
> not going to shoot off his mouth in the Pensieve scene.  How does 
> that do Voldemort or anyone else any good?  No, Fourth Man is already 
> plotting his release from Azkaban on an Imperius defense.  So he 
> knows anything he says can and will be used against him.  Tough Guy 
> Fourth Man is downright cagey.  Cunning, really.
> 
> So, can I have Tough Guy Fourth Man?  Please?  

But is he really being Tough, Tough in a DE sense? Sure, we can make him out 
to be noble and self-sacrificing in the graveyard. But *are* Tough DEs noble 
and self-sacrificing? I tend to think not. The most noble and 
self-sacrificing thing we've seen a DE do so far is Wormtail cutting off his 
hand and not everyone thinks even *that's* Tough. (For the record, I have to 
agree with the person who said that they couldn't do it if their life 
depended on it.) If he's all that cunning, isn't he going to let someone else 
get the rap? Are his fellow DEs really going to respect him as No 1 Henchman 
because he allows Voldemort to punish him? The reverse, I'd have thought.

Surely the point about being a DE is that you're loyal to Voldemort, beyond 
anything or anyone else. If he's Strong and Tough and Committed, (as I 
unfortunately snipped), why doesn't he endure Azkaban, like the Lestranges, 
or having got himself out by a cowardly cry of Imperius, why hasn't *he* done 
something about trying to rescue Voldemort?

Nah. In Over His Head Fourth Man works much better for me. In Over the Top 
Fourth Man might just be Noble and Self Sacrificing; he's reading the wrong 
script. He has a certain amount of pathos as well, which I quite like.

Let's talk about that trapezoid, instead. :-)

Eloise



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