Snape and the Malfoys (was Re: Harry's Putative Death)

[darrin_burnett]

No: HPFGUIDX 42077

Porphryia wrote: 


> Lucius never takes any pains to disguise his hostility towards 
Harry, 
> despite advising his son to do so. At the end of CoS he viciously 
> inform Harry that he'll meet the same nasty end as his meddling 
> parents, which rivals Draco himself for letting his true feeling 
> erupt in public. 


All excellent points, neatly skewering me. OK, I concede. Snape 
SHOULD know Lucius is not reformed, no matter how much he might want 
to believe it. I still maintain that it is possible Snape engaged in 
some willful ignorance of Lucius, or perhaps the sudden movement was 
just simply a realization that D-Day is now here and he has to get 
back into the fray.




> Darrin wrote:
> <<
> And I'm not convinced Dumbledore told Snape about the diary. 
> Dumbledore definitely operates on a need-to-know basis and if he 
had 
> ideas of Snape someday being a plant in V-Mort's camp again, he'd 
> want him as protected as possible from information that could 
betray 
> him.
> >>
> 

And Porpyhria:

> Dumbledore operates on a need-to-know basis as far as concerns 
Harry, > who is barely out of childhood. But I'm not sure that 
extends to Snape who is obviously his left hand man in many respects. 
I think it would be flinty if Dumbledore *didn't* tell Snape about 
the horrific actions of the most prominent parent/alum in House 
Slytherin.
> 

I'm holding on to my theory on this one for the simple reason that a 
spy shouldn't know everything in case of capture. Dumbledore 
shouldn't be letting Snape in on everything in case V-Mort got ahold 
of him and started playing around in his head.


> In fact I wouldn't be surprised to think that Snape had been 
telling  Dumbledore that Lucius was bad news all along. This would 
explain  Dumbledore's utter lack of surprise at Lucius' connection to 
Tom  Riddle at the end of CoS. Granted Hagrid and Arthur know about 
> Lucius' support for LV and his agenda, but you have to wonder where 
> that knowledge came from in the first place. It seems plausible to 
me  that it could have originated from a well-placed mole among the 
DEs who would know Lucius better even than Ministry gossip.
> 

Well, Lucius being a V-Mort supporter in the past is common 
knowledge. The suspicion is that he never reformed -- hardly an 
uncommon one -- and it appears that aside from Snape, none of the 
surviving DE's reformed -- and the jury's still out on Our Man Snape. 

> As Marina said:
> <<
> But Snape's a *spy*, it's his job to distrust everyone, to know who
> the bad guys are, and not to be taken in by charm. And why would
> Lucius try to charm Snape into thinking he isn't a true DE, if he
> believes that Snape *is* a true DE?
> >>
> 
> I agree completely. Snape isn't just competent; he is an extremely 
> suspicious person. He always assumes the worst of Harry, not to 
> mention Sirius, Lupin and Quirrell. Snape can tell when Harry is 
> lying by noticing when he blinks. We've never seen him give anyone 
> the benefit of the doubt. Even with Draco, I don't think Snape is 
> *taken in.* Snape *favors* Draco, meaning he sides with him whether 
> or not it's fair to do so, which is different from being snowed by 
> his charm. I can't imagine how Lucius, given what we know of him, 
> could succeed in fooling Snape. 


Assuming the worst of people he hates, Sirius, Lupin and Harry -- and 
maybe Quirrell, if there is any kernel of truth to Snape wanting the 
DADA job -- is hardly a sign of competence. He hates them, so of 
course he is going to be on the lookout for what they are doing. 
Dumbledore didn't consult Snape before hiring Lupin, or at least 
overrode any concerns, and Snape didn't know Sirius' full role until 
the end of GoF. This all ties back to my theory that D-Dore doesn't 
tell him everything. Nor should he. 

Now, take the case of Lucius. At one point in his life, Snape was a 
DE, and probably pretty happy about it. Something changed, whether it 
was something he witnessed, was ordered to do, or whatever, to sour 
him on V-mort and his crew. But there is still a bond there, 
especially for Snape, a guy who apparently didn't have any other 
friends BUT that Slytherin gang. 

For that matter, we don't know if Snape disagrees with the pureblood 
theory. He might be a little like the old Southern Democrats in the 
United States: "I don't want to hurt Negros," they'd say. "Just don't 
want them in my neighborhood."

Which also could explain his torture of Hermione. Maybe he finds her 
just as distasteful as Draco does, and wants her out of Hogwarts, but 
certainly doesn't want her killed.
 
Just the same as being suspicious of who you hate, sometimes we 
believe those we want to believe. 



> I agree that we really don't know if Snape's task is to spy again. 
> But I also agree that Snape's 'sudden movement' is meaningful 
> somehow, and that it points to Snape's past, present or prospective 
> relationship with Lucius somehow. I have a feeling this is 
> indicative of some future subplot between these two, which has 
> already been hinted at in Snape and Draco's mutual displays of 
> support for each other. I just don't think that Snape's reaction to 
> Lucius' name is surprise or shock; I suspect it's some other strong 
> feeling. 

OK... what is it? :) I still like shock and surprise.

> 
> I'm being argumentative with Darrin today, but someday I promise I 
> will post all my support for his 'Snape hates teaching but is stuck 
> at Hogwarts' theory, which I really do support.
> 


Darrin
-- Whew, glad to see we agree on some things.