MAGIC DISHWASHER (Was: Re: Wandless!Harry - A Fatal Flaw?)

[greg_a126]

No: HPFGUIDX 43144

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "grey_wolf_c" <greywolf1 at j...> wrote:
> > Yes, we all know, because we're following Harry's life, that 
he's 
> > not even the best wizard in his class when it comes to that sort 
of 
> > thing. But that's not what Harry Potter means to the WW. Harry 
> > Potter is a symbol. He, when he was a little over 1 year old, 
> > defeated the worst dark lord in over 100 years. A dark lord so 
> > terrible that nearly 15 years later people are still afraid to 
say 
> > his name. 
> > 
> > So what does that mean?  These people are absolutely terrified.  
> > Harry Potter is the reason many of them are going to fight. If 
> > Harry's dead body had been sent to the Daily Prophet, w/ a 
little 
> > note on it from Lord Voldemort, I think a ton of them just 
would've 
> > given up. But now that he's escaped, he's Harry Potter, the Boy-
Who-
> > Lived, the Tri-Wizard champion, and one of the few people who 
has 
> > ever escaped the Dark Lord's wrath & he's now done it 3 times.  
But 
> > most important of all, he's the Boy-Who's-Living.
> 
> Do you really believe they will fight? Even with Harry Potter on 
their 
> side? I am not one of the Fudge Is Evil defenders. To me, he's the 
> perfect example of the typical WW wizard, and he's not willing to 
fight 
> against Voldemort. Nor are many of the wizard and witches, which 
is why 
> Dumbledore has that group of people he *knows* he can trust. 
Notice 
> that, so far, the only people who don't call Voldemort "you know 
who" 
> have happened to be part of the "old gang", and the only ones 
willing 
> to fight him. 

I don't think that's true.  Based on Chapter one of PS, Professor 
McGonagall only refers to him as "You-Know-Who".  Number one, I 
doubt Dumbledore would have a deputy that he didn't think he could 
count on in the fight against Voldemort.  Plus, her actions at the 
end of book 4 imply to me someone who's used to being in a war.  Not 
only does she help Dumbledore stun Crouch, but when he gives her 
some rather odd orders, she doesn't stop to question, but 
immediately runs to carry them out.  I see her as sitting along side 
Dumbledore in all of his meetings to try & find a way to kill 
Voldemort, regardless of whether or not she can say his name.

So I don't see Fudge as prototypical of the WW.  The person that I 
see more as a representative of the whole, even though he's not a 
proper wizard, is Hagrid.  "Long as we've got Dumbledore we'll be 
ok."  But Dumbledore is either going to die or be incapacitated 
before the end of book 7.  And at that point, when Harry Potter, the 
Boy-Who-Lived goes to him and says "I need your help to finish the 
war", he's going to continue to fight.  

> > Voldemort can't take over the WW until Harry & Dumbledore are 
both 
> > dead. Until then, he can be a royal pain, but he can't rule. 
Once 
> > they're both dead, he's the Minister of Magic until he dies. He 
> > knows that. He knows that as long as Harry is alive, there are 
> > always going to be people who oppose him.  Why bother to send a 
tiny 
> > little bit of disinformation via Harry, when there are so many 
other 
> > ways to do it. Snape for instance, is almost certain to at least 
> > try & take up his spying post again. It'd take a few weeks to 
send 
> > everything via Snape, at most, and then the deed would be done, 
but 
> > Harry would be dead.  
> 
> But he *can* rule the WW with both Dumbledore and Harry still 
alive. 
> Let's take this to the limit: Voldemort kills everyone that oposes 
him 
> except H&D: He gets to rule the WW, even if they still exist. 

I guess this is true...but if it was just Voldemort & 2 other people 
it wouldn't be much of a world to rule.

Truth is, 
> Dumbledore is not in a position of political authority, and he has 
> never wanted to be. It's comendable, and a strong defensive 
position, 
> but it means that Voldemort can take over the MoM, put someone he 
trust 
> at the top, and reduce Dumbledore's side to a resistance movement. 
And 
> if that happens, Voldemort will have won the war, because no war 
can   
> *ever* be won from a hit-and-run position.

I'm not saying that Voldemort won't ever run the MoM, but I think so 
long as people, for the most part, look to Dumbledore for guidance 
that Voldemort can't be completely in charge of the WW, MoM or no.
 
> > The other thing, "After all, his real eney is Dumbledore, and 
last 
> > time, it was easy to beat him."  I don't think that's true at 
all.  
> > If it was, why didn't he?  I think the best that either could do 
> > would be hurt each other enough that they'd both die.  The fact 
that 
> > Dumbledore is probably the only wizard alive who would have a 
chance 
> > at killing him is enough to keep Voldemort away until he's sure 
of 
> > his immortality.  At the same time, Dumbledore is aware of his 
> > importance to the good guys, and isn't willing to get into a 
fight 
> > that may lead to his death, but not Voldemort's and the good 
guys 
> > would lose the war.  
> > 
> > Greg
> 
> But he *did* beat him. By all acounts, at the time of his sudden 
> downfall, Voldemort had managed to almost take over the WW. 

Yes, but almost counts only in horseshoes & hand gernades, not 
war.  ;)
 
> And finally, I repeat the basic of Voldemort's reasoning to let 
Harry 
> leave: While it is true that he probably needs to kill the boy, he 
has 
> still got three years more before Harry finishes his training (and 
from 
> Voldemort's PoV, probably even a few years more. If I was 
Voldemort, 
> I'd hardly expect Dumbledore to send Harry against me at the 
immediate 
> end of his training). 

This is just the definition of bad military tactics.  You said it 
yourself, "He needs to kill the boy."  If that graveyard scene had 
happened w/ just about any other wizard, I would find it much more 
likely that Voldemort would try a disinformation campaign.  But 
whatever reason existed 14 years ago for him to want to kill this 
little brat still exists.  If he's just lost his mother's 
protection, I as Voldemort, make sure to kill him before Dumbledore 
comes up w/ some other enchantment, like he's using at his 
relative's house, to keep this kid safe permanently.  

Greg