MAGIC DISHWASHER (Was: Re: Wandless!Harry - A Fatal Flaw?)

[grey_wolf_c]

No: HPFGUIDX 43165

I wrote:
> > Do you really believe they will fight? Even with Harry Potter on 
> > their side? I am not one of the Fudge Is Evil defenders. To me, 
> > he's the perfect example of the typical WW wizard, and he's not 
> > willing to fight against Voldemort. Nor are many of the wizard and 
> > witches, which is why Dumbledore has that group of people he 
> > *knows* he can trust. Notice that, so far, the only people who 
> > don't call Voldemort "you know who" have happened to be part of the 
> > "old gang", and the only ones willing to fight him. 

Greg answered: 
> I don't think that's true.  Based on Chapter one of PS, Professor 
> McGonagall only refers to him as "You-Know-Who".  Number one, I 
> doubt Dumbledore would have a deputy that he didn't think he could 
> count on in the fight against Voldemort.  Plus, her actions at the 
> end of book 4 imply to me someone who's used to being in a war.  Not 
> only does she help Dumbledore stun Crouch, but when he gives her 
> some rather odd orders, she doesn't stop to question, but 
> immediately runs to carry them out.  I see her as sitting along side 
> Dumbledore in all of his meetings to try & find a way to kill 
> Voldemort, regardless of whether or not she can say his name.

You've twisted my words around to make them say something I did 
certainly *NOT* say. Take a look at the original post: 
    the only people who don't call Voldemort "you know who" have
    happened to be part of the "old gang"

It does *not* say that all the members of the old gang call Voldemort  
by his name, only that the people who call him Voldemort are *part* of 
the old gang. Your argument is not valid, and I find offensive that 
people distort my words. The objection would be valid if you found 
someone who calls Voldemort by name and was *not* part of the old 
group.

> So I don't see Fudge as prototypical of the WW.  The person that I 
> see more as a representative of the whole, even though he's not a 
> proper wizard, is Hagrid.  "Long as we've got Dumbledore we'll be 
> ok."  But Dumbledore is either going to die or be incapacitated 
> before the end of book 7.  And at that point, when Harry Potter, the 
> Boy-Who-Lived goes to him and says "I need your help to finish the 
> war", he's going to continue to fight.  

I don't think Hagrid is a good example of the typical wizard of the WW. 
He's fanatically loyal to Dumbledore, and would follow him anyplace, 
but I doubt this is the case with other wizards. As I said, I find 
Fudge more the archetypical wizard than Hagrid. For example, most 
people think that Voldemort is dead, but Hagrid doesn't think so. It 
may look like a little difference, but it's extremelly important in 
this case: most people are deluding themselves into thinking that 
Voldemort is dead and that he cannot come back, and that is because 
they prefer to pretend that Voldemort is destroyed than face the fear 
of his return. Those sort of people -people like Fudge- won't fight 
against Voldemort until it's too late, and maybe they won't fight at 
all.

Then again, what we've seen so far of the WW makes me think that most 
of the people during Voldemort's Terror Campaign were cowering in their 
houses, fearing Voldemort and not doing anything at all about it, 
mainly because they didn't know where Voldemort would strike next. And 
that is the danger of an information war: Voldemort had the upper hand 
because he was difficult to find and to know where he would strike. 
Anyone who dared oppose him could suddenly find himself without family, 
when he came back from a hard day persecuting DEs to find the Deathmark 
over his house. Remember that the Neville crisis didn't shock the WW 
because of what had happened: it only shocked them because it happened 
*after* Voldemort fell. Those sort of torture events must have been 
pretty common, and most people wouldn't want to cross him for fear of 
their families.

I also said:
> > But he *can* rule the WW with both Dumbledore and Harry still 
> > alive. Let's take this to the limit: Voldemort kills everyone that 
> > oposes him except H&D: He gets to rule the WW, even if they still
> > exist. 

Greg answered:
> I guess this is true...but if it was just Voldemort & 2 other people 
> it wouldn't be much of a world to rule.

And Richelle wrote:
> But how can Voldemort kill *everyone* except Harry and Dumbledore? 
> Even in Voldemort's first reign he feared Dumbledore. As long as
> Dumbledore's around and Voldemort fears him he will hestitate to go
> openly to wherever Dumbledore is. Which as long as Dumbledore is at
> Hogwart's it is a sort of safe haven. And as long as there are still 
> a large number at Hogwarts, Voldemort can't rule the entire WW.

I did not say that he had to kill *everyone*, Greg and Richelle, only 
everyone that opposes him. This doesn't mean every soul in the WW. For 
starters, all the DEs and the people who think like Malfoy does don't 
oppose Voldemort, but, what is worse, many people wouldn't oppose him 
out of fear, and would let him rule because for some people is easier 
to capitulate than to suffer. Voldemort would only have to kill those 
who are actively against him: the old gang, and a few aurors. That's 
not that many people, and Voldemort is powerful enough for that. 
Without those people, Dumbledore and Harry don't have a chance.

And, Richelle, are you sure that Hogwarts is a safe Haven? Voldemort 
has managed to enter it twice already, through the use of agents. For 
all we know, half a dozen of the teachers are in Voldemort's payroll. 
He's good at the spy game, and Dumbledore has proven unable to discover 
double agents between his ranks. What other surprises are in store for 
us in Hogwarts? Besides, there aren't that many Hogwarts in the WW. 
Name a second one, in fact, since I can't think of any place as safe as 
Hogwarts of all we have seen so far. Voldemort fears Dumbledore, of 
course, but he has already been able to work around him, and I'd 
imagine that he'll continue to do so.

Back to my old post:
> > Truth is, Dumbledore is not in a position of political authority, 
> > and he has never wanted to be. It's comendable, and a strong 
> > defensive position, but it means that Voldemort can take over the 
> > MoM, put someone he trust at the top, and reduce Dumbledore's side 
> > to a resistance movement. And if that happens, Voldemort will have  
> > won the war, because no war can *ever* be won from a hit-and-run
> > position.

Greg again:
> I'm not saying that Voldemort won't ever run the MoM, but I think so 
> long as people, for the most part, look to Dumbledore for guidance 
> that Voldemort can't be completely in charge of the WW, MoM or no.

Voldemort's plans are, broadly, becoming immortal and ruling the WW. 
Both can be reached even with the interference of Dumbledore and Harry. 
Once Voldemort's in power, too, Dumbledore will have almost lost the 
war since, as I've said, he'll continue to be a thorn in Voldemort's 
side, but his opportunities to win the war will have been reduced to 
almost zero. I don't see what is your objection to this, Greg, or how 
it relates to MAGIC DISHWASHER.

Me again:
> > But he *did* beat him. By all acounts, at the time of his sudden 
> > downfall, Voldemort had managed to almost take over the WW. 

Greg: 
> Yes, but almost counts only in horseshoes & hand gernades, not 
> war.  ;)

In a war "almost" does count. You can be in a loosing position, or in a 
winning position, and even though things *can* change, moral of the 
soldiers is very important, and soldiers aren't going to be willing to 
fight if they smell defeat in the air. I believe that if Voldemort 
hadn't been blasted away by Harry's protection, he would have been able 
to take over the WW in less than five years. That is "almost" a victory 
and the WW people know that, and fear him because of it.

Me, a last time:
> > And finally, I repeat the basic of Voldemort's reasoning to let 
> > Harry leave: While it is true that he probably needs to kill the 
> > boy, he has still got three years more before Harry finishes his 
> > training (and from Voldemort's PoV, probably even a few years more. 
> > If I was Voldemort, I'd hardly expect Dumbledore to send Harry 
> > against me at the immediate end of his training). 

Greg, finally:
> This is just the definition of bad military tactics.  You said it 
> yourself, "He needs to kill the boy."  If that graveyard scene had 
> happened w/ just about any other wizard, I would find it much more 
> likely that Voldemort would try a disinformation campaign.  But 
> whatever reason existed 14 years ago for him to want to kill this 
> little brat still exists.  If he's just lost his mother's 
> protection, I as Voldemort, make sure to kill him before Dumbledore 
> comes up w/ some other enchantment, like he's using at his 
> relative's house, to keep this kid safe permanently.  
> 
> Greg

But Voldemort isn't sure that he *can* kill the boy, so he takes it 
into consideration for his plans. And the fact is that events prove him 
right: he is unable to kill the boy in the graveyard, but even if he   
*had* killed him, his plans would've still have included the posibility 
of escpaing. Voldemort cannot see the future. He plans, and prepares 
contingency plans. Which means, in this case, that he planned to 
resurrect and then, once resurrected he planned *trying* to kill the 
brat, but also feed him false information *just in case* Harry happened 
to scape again. And, Lo and Behold! that is exactly what happened: 
Harry *did* manage to escape, even though Voldemort first debilitated 
him and then tried to AK him.

When objecting to MAGIC DISHWASHER, people tend to miss the main point 
of the idea: that there are *plans* behind what is happening to Harry. 
There was a plan behind the shack scene, engineered by Dumbledore, 
which almost went *very* wrong. And there was a plan behind the 
Graveyard Gathering which *included* Harry either *dead or escaped*. 
And we know that because Voldemort isn't stupid, and he *didn't* have 
to talk before Harry. So, since he did, he must have had something else 
in mind.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf