MAGIC DISHWASHER: saying the name/escape plans

[grey_wolf_c]

No: HPFGUIDX 43182

Judy Shapiro wrote:
> In general, I believe MAGIC DISHWASHER, or at least parts of it.  I 
> think Dumbeldore has a plan; he wanted Voldemort to use Harry in his 
> attempt to regain human form, and I think the notorious "gleam" was 
> because Dumbledore was glad Voldemort had used Harry's blood.  But, I 
> don't think Dumbledore anticipated Voldemort kidnapping Harry from 
> the Tournament, and I think Voldemort wanted Harry *dead dead dead* 
> in the Graveyard scene, not escaped.
> 
> --Judy

Don't really have much to say about Judy's points, except that you've 
got some of the ideas wrong. MAGIC DISHWASHER doesn't say that 
Dumbledor anticipated the Graveyard scene. In fact, it says the exact 
oposite: that Dumbledore *did not* see the Portkey!Cup twist. He's not 
*that cruel*, and it goes against his modus operandi: when Harry is 
about to face the "big enemy" (any of them), Dumbledore always has 
back-up ready for him: Dumbledore himself in PS, arriving in the nick 
of time. Fawkes and the hat in CoS. Snape in Shack Scene, PoA. However, 
Harry only has Cedric "Spare" Digory in the Graveyard Gathering, which 
strikes me as even *less* competent than having Lockhart (OK, maybe not 
*that* incompetent, but still...).

Of course, if you believe in Stupid!Voldemort, there is not much I can 
do to convince you otherwise, except by insisting that you check the 
original theory (post 40044, for Voldemort the intelligent evil 
oiverlord part). You haven't given me a real reason, and I know that 
feeling. You trust your guts (as do I for most of the theories), and 
there is not really much I can do to change your view point except what 
I've already said. But rational arguments cannot change a gut feeling, 
I know (been there, done that).

Phyllis wrote:
> Perhaps the dead in the wizarding world 
> have some sort of omniscient powers.  This would explain how 
> the "reverse echo" of James knew to tell Harry that the portkey would 
> return him to Hogwarts and how Bertha Jorkins' "echo" knew to call 
> Harry "Harry" when we've never heard of an instance where Harry has 
> previously met her.  IIRC, in an interview JKR indicated that in 
> future books we will find out more about ghosts in the wizarding 
> world, so perhaps she'll actually give us an answer to this by the 
> end of Book 7.

I want to point out that the general consensus in the list, IIRC, is 
that those weren't real ghost, just shadows (that is, they weren't 
ghosts like Binns or Nick), so there is no reason to imagine that JKR 
will go into details about their powers. This theory is based in 
Dumbledore's words in GoF. Harry says that he saw Cedric's ghost, and 
Dumbledore corrects him and says "An echo that kept Cedric's aspect and 
personality". Yahoomort's search feature has proven to be worthless, 
and I haven't found the last itme that came up. It was quite some time 
ago, anyway, so if you disagree, maybe it's time we brought it up 
again.

> Phyllis again:
> 
> But isn't one of the basic tenets of MAGIC DISHWASHER that Voldemort 
> is a careful planner?  So if Voldemort was planning to let Harry 
> escape, he would have *had* to put a plan in place for when Harry 
> returned to Hogwarts (IMO, Harry wouldn't escape back to the dreaded 
> Dursleys, he would escape back to Hogwarts).  So I would think that 
> Fake!Moody would *have* to know of Voldemort's plan to let Harry 
> escape so he could feed misinformation to Dumbledore, since Fake!
> Moody is Voldemort's only servant at Hogwarts (that we know of, that 
> is!).
> 
> This actually would answer a question I've been pondering, which is - 
> why didn't Fake!Moody portkey himself to the graveyard when he felt 
> the Dark Mark burn on his arm?  If the answer is that Voldemort 
> needed him to remain at Hogwarts in case he wasn't able to kill Harry 
> and Harry escaped back to Hogwarts, it would make sense that Fake!
> Moody would have needed to stay at Hogwarts rather than join his 
> fellow DEs at Voldemort's self-titled "rebirthing party."  So I agree 
> that Voldemort had a back-up plan in case Harry escaped (Fake!Moody 
> was instructed to kill Harry upon his return to Hogwarts), but I 
> don't agree that Voldemort intended for Harry to escape so he could 
> feed misinformation to Dumbledore (since Fake!Moody tried to kill 
> Harry before the "misinformation" could be relayed).

We agree that Voldemort is a careful planner all right, Phyllis, but 
I'm not that sure that he's all that willing to give his DEs more 
information that they strictly need. Besides, I didn't think that 
Crouch had been ordered to kill Harry if he returned: Crouch at that 
time is totally out of control (a good clue is how he gets careless, 
first by forgetting to take his potion, then by forgeting to check the 
mirror). I wasn't saying that, if he had killed him, Voldemort wouldn't 
have been happy about it, only that it wasn't considered in his 
original plans. However, with that particular knack you've got, 
Phyllis, to opose a theory at the same time you add to it, I've 
rethinked my position.

Maybe Crouch's actions at the end of GoF *were* part of Voldemort's 
plan: if Harry managed to escape one more, Crouch should take a try at 
killing him. After all, all Voldemort looses is a spy that, although it 
has proven to be very useful, cannot stay another year (Moddy would 
only be DADA teacher for one year), so Voldemort changes a bishop for a 
queen, and maybe even manages to take a few more in his wake although 
make no mistake, Crouch's oportunities of getting out of Hogwarts alive 
and free after killing Harry would be infinitesimal). I don't think 
Voldemort told Crouch that he didn't expect him to leave alive, though.

The problem with that possibility is that Crouch was acting out of 
control at the end of GoF. I've always felt that Crouch was trying to 
impress Voldemort by doing something not even he had managed, which is 
why I think I'm going to stick to "Crocuh was improvising for all his 
worth" option. Both are compatible with MAGIC DISHWASHER  so far, 
though, so take your pick. I'd modify a bit your version, though. No 
matter what sort of Voldemort you believe in, he's not the sort to 
think that what he cannot do, a servant can, so if his plans include 
Harry escaping to fall in Crouch's clutches, they must include Harry 
escaping Crouch too. Which takes us back to "at least he'll give 
Dumbledore false information" thread.

Phyllis one last time:
> I'm curious as to why the information Voldemort provides is 
> considered misleading or false.  All of it rings true to me - the 
> fact that he's named after his father; the fact that he killed his 
> father; that he calls the dementors and giants his "natural allies."
> 
> ~Phyllis

I must admit that I'm not the expert on that. For the possible 
misinformation, check Pip's post 40044. She gives there a few examples 
of misinformation feed to Harry from MAGIC DISHWASHER's point of view. 
(the last points of the post, check the index if you don't want to read 
through it again). I've just read through them and Pip's explanation 
makes sense, and no-one so far has poked holes in that part of MAGIC 
DISHWASHER, so there is no patch information I can give you.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf, who would really want Phyllis to join MAGIC DISHWASHER, 
since it's very difficult to argue with someone who adds so many great 
ideas while trying to fight the theory itself.