[HPforGrownups] Re: So Why didn't Dumbledore Punish Sirius?/the Prank

[Monika Huebner]

No: HPFGUIDX 48321

On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 21:05:48 -0000, "pippin_999 <foxmoth at qnet.com>"
<foxmoth at qnet.com> wrote:

>
>I said:
>> 
>> I always understood from what Lupin was saying in PoA that 
>Sirius apparently didn't do anything else. It was up to Snape to 
>use this information like he did. Don't get me wrong, I don't think 
>Sirius should have told him how to get into the Willow, but it's not 
>like he dragged him there.<<

Pippin replied:

>I see I've expressed myself with my usual lack of clarity. Let me 
>try again. My [hypothetical] sequence of events goes like this.

Don't know if you lacked clarity the first time, but I like your
scenario, it sounds plausible. ;)

[explanation snipped]

>Me again:

>> Think of the scene in PoA when Malfoy and his friends try to 
>frighten Harry to death by playing Dementors during the 
>Quidditch match. That could have very well killed him if 
>Dumbledore hadn't slowed his fall.<<

Pippin:

>You're confusing two incidents. The fall came from the *real* 
>Dementors during the previous match.

Oops, you're absolutely right here (someone must have memory charmed
me ;-)), but still...

>Draco couldn't have 
>possibly caused Harry to go into a trance and fall off his broom. 

No, you're right, he couldn't have, but did he really know this? He'd
heard Harry had fainted on the train when the Dementor searched his
compartment, but he can't very well know why, and no one else fainted.
Then he saw Harry fall off his broom during the first match, but
unless he lives something similar to what Harry goes through if he
comes near a Dementor, I'd say he would only have a very vague idea
about what causes Harry to freak, and therefore he might very well
have thought, 'Hey, if he falls off again, he won't catch the Snitch
and Gryffindor will lose'. My idea still is that he wanted to scare
the hell out of Harry and prevent Gryffindor from winning, but if
Harry would really freak at the mere sight of a Dementor (which I
still believe Draco thought), he might have fallen off his broom
again, and Draco didn't think through the consequences of what would
happen to *him* if famous Harry Potter was seriously hurt or even
died. 

>Well, risking a salvo from the Draco Apologists, Draco would 
>*like* to be thought capable of murder. We overhear him wishing 
>he could help the Heir of Slytherin and hoping that Granger will 
>die.

Hm, what am I doing here, I don't even like Draco... Don't you think
he might have been just boasting and maybe repeating what he heard at
home all the time? He's twelve in CoS, and even if you say you hope
someone would die, it's a long way from saying so to actually going
there. I perfectly believe Lucius capable of murder and torture, and
this might very well be the philosophy Draco is presented with all day
when he's at home, but I think at twelve he's not really up to
thinking through all the consequences this implies.

>However, even in the Wizarding World, merely wishing that 
>someone would die is not a crime.

Nor is it in the Muggle World, or is it?

> I think Dumbledore would have been confident that he could 
>keep things quiet, even if he had to expel somebody. And I think 
>he would have done that, at least, if he could have proved that 
>Sirius knew what Lupin was and deliberately planned for Snape 
>to encounter him.

Hm, but is the latter easy to prove? I don't think so. The part that
isn't easy to prove is the "deliberately planned". And I doubt it was.
It seems that Snape was spying all the time on the Marauders; what I
see is that Sirius - who might have been still a bit more hotheaded as
a teen - let the information slip in a moment when he was more
exasperated than usually. I still don't think Dumbledore would have
expelled Sirius even if he *had* known that Sirius knew what Lupin
was, unless he thought Sirius was a hopeless case anyway. We know
Dumbledore likes to give second chances, you will think twice before
you expel one of the most gifted students in the whole school, even if
he exhibits a deplorably immature teenage behaviour.

>Me again:
>> I think Snape must have known all along that Sirius knew 
>about Lupin, or him suspecting Lupin to be in on the joke doesn't 
>make a whole lot of sense to me. Why should Sirius tell him 
>where to go if he didn'tknow what was waiting for him there?
>
>My idea is that Snape *believed* that Sirius knew about Lupin, 
>but couldn't prove it, and when he finally heard that Sirius admit 
>that, yes, he did know about Lupin, Snape was illogically 
>confirmed in his belief Lupin knowing about the prank. 
>Interestingly, with Crookshanks there to spot lying, Lupin never 
>denies having been involved.

He doesn't deny it, that's true, but he doesn't confirm it either, or
does he? To me it sounded as if he was more than a bit embarrassed
that Sirius "used" him to play that trick on Snape, but face to Harry,
who had just discovered that his godfather wasn't a murderer after
all, he didn't want to pin the whole blame on Sirius alone. Lupin
strikes me as a very diplomatic person, I think he just didn't want to
hurt anyone's feelings when he talked about his "involvement" in the
prank.


> Sherry wrote:
>
>> If I'm wrong, and Sirius' comments are a true reflection of his beliefs,
>then
>> is there any evidence that he suffered any consequences for his actions?
>It
>> seems clear that there was no *authority-imposed* punishment, or at least
>we
>> never hear about it. 

I think we simply weren't told what punishment he got. I guess it was
at least detention and losing quite a few house points, but mentioning
it under the circumstances wouldn't have fit into the dialogue, don't
you think so? Just a thought. I really can't imagine Harry asking
under the circumstances (discovering his godfather didn't kill his
parents, being told that Ron's pet rat was actually a wizard in
disguise and presumably the one who betrayed them), 'Didn't you get
punished for that prank?' All the more because Harry doesn't really
care about Snape. So, the fact that JKR didn't tell us about any
authority-imposed punishment is no proof that there wasn't one. But
whatever punishment Sirius might have gotten, unless he was expelled,
you can be sure that it wouldn't have been enough for Snape. Just
IMHO, of course. 

Sherry:
> That would make it easy for Snape to hold a grudge,
>since
>> as I have stated, punishment is much more visible to outsiders than
>> consequence, and Snape may have failed to see how Sirius paid.  Does
>anyone
>> know of any such consequence of the Prank?

Irene replied:

>But of course! Huge, karmic consequences - when he was framed, everyone,
>including Dumbledore and his friend Lupin believed it without a trial. If it
>was not for the prank,
>maybe there would have been someone who said - "Hang on, Sirius the
>murderer? What an absurd idea, let's at least  hear his explanations".

Not necessarily. Think of what we have been told about the time of
Voldemort's first reign. Everyone distrusted everyone. They all knew
there must be a traitor in their midst, but since everybody believed
Peter to be too stupid and weak to be the one, Sirius suspected Lupin
and vice versa. And nobody knew Sirius and Peter switched
Secret-Keepers. I'm pretty sure James and Lily told Dumbledore Sirius
was the Secret-Keeper, and that's why he testified before the
Ministry. *All the evidence* spoke against Sirius, and the whole WW
was in an uproar at the time. The Potters seem to have been important
people, we still don't know why, but I have no doubt about it. Sirius
seemed to have been caught in the act, and Crouch might have wanted to
set an example after Voldemort's disappearance to restore law and
order in the WW. We know he wasn't the most sensitive person since he
also gave permission to the Aurors to use the Unforgivable curses. He
strikes me as someone who in certain situations might shoot first and
ask questions later if he believes his cause justified. From what I
understood of the situation, the WW might still have been under a
state of emergency, and in such a situation people are more prone to
lose their scruples. To sum it up, I don't think the fact that no one
wanted to hear Sirius out is a proof that everyone distrusted him.
Remember what Madam Rosmerta said about him in the Three Broomsticks,
that he was the last one she would have ever thought to go over to the
dark side.

Monika